What good running stallions have the best pedigrees?

[Keith]

What good running stallions have the best pedigrees?

If I had to choose some that come to mind are

1. A.P. Indy by Seattle Slew-Weekend Surprise by Secretariat
2. Kingmambo by Mr. Prospector-Miesque by Nureyev
3. Smart Strike by Mr. Prospector-Classy 'n Smart by Smarten
4. Galileo by Sadler's Wells-Urban Sea by Miswaki
5. Empire Maker by Unbridled-Toussaud by El Gran Senor
6. Ghostzapper by Awesome Again-Baby Zip by Relaunch
7. Awesome Again by Deputy Minister-Primal Force by Blushing Groom
8. Mineshaft by A.P. Indy-Prospector's Delite by Mr. Prospector
9. Kitten's Joy by El Prado-Kitten's First by Lear Fan
10. Sky Classic by Nijinsky II-No Class by Nodouble
11. Regal Classic by Vice Regent-No Class by Nodouble
12. Rahy by Blushing Groom-Glorious Song by Halo
13. Sadler's Wells by Northern Dancer-Fairy Bridge by Bold Reason
14. Aldeberan by Mr. Prospector-Chimes of Freedom by Private Account
15. El Prado by Sadler's Wells-Lady Capulet by Sir Ivor
16. Seeking The Gold by Mr. Prospector-Con Game by Buckpasser
17. Gulch by Mr. Prospector-Jameela by Rambunctious
18. Strategic Mission by Mr. Prospector-Sultry Sun by Buckfinder
19. War Chant by Danzig-Hollywood Wildcat by Kris S.
20. Lemon Drop Kid by Kingmambo-Charming Lassie by Seattle Slew

These are a few that come to mind

[hpkingjr]

Keith:
Interesting topic and list. Was it intentional or unintentional that Storm Cat's name did not appear in your list of 20? Have you been drinking water from Rokeby's jug?

[parlo]

@Keith: And what are your criteria to define a "good / best" pedigree?

[jagger]

I like your number 1 pick, A.P. Indy. Along with parlo though, what are your criteria? Best mares in the first four generations? Sometime ago I checked the mares in A.P.'s first 4 generations. NO mare in the first 4 generations failed to produce at least 1 black type foal and there were only 2 of them. 5 mares produced 6 black type foals, 1 mare produced 7 black type foals and 1 produced 8 black type foals. In total, the mares in the first 4 generations produced [b]70black type offspring. 10 of the mares in the first 4 generations are Reines. From the female side, I think A.P is hard to beat.

[Rokeby Forever]

Interesting topic and list. Was it intentional or unintentional that Storm Cat's name did not appear in your list of 20? Have you been drinking water from Rokeby's jug?

Oh, hpking...you're such a pessimist. I'm sure the breeding world can't wait for Mr Sekiguchi to join the ranks.

[hpkingjr]

My point is that Storm Cat has been the most expensive stallion for the last ten years, bred to the very finest books of mares for at least 15 years, and absent as both a sire and broodmare sire in Keith's list. I really don't know who I would add but With Distinction and Tale of a Cat are both nicely bred.

Looking at Storm Cat as a broodmare sire, Speightstown and Jump Start are nice pedigrees. I suppose I was shocked by the lack of Storm Cat in the 40 sires and broodmare sires. Is it remotely possible that Rokeby may have a valid point and is just not trading barbs with worthy opponents? Damn I hate it when he's right.

[Rokeby Forever]

Be careful about stating fact, hpkingjr...it gets you trashed on PQ.

How about the $6.8 Million Tasmanian Tiger (Storm Cat - Hum Along). Check out that family - he's GOT to be on the list!

Ooh, wait a minute...he was gelded after a few starts and wound up in Hong Hong next to a side order of fried rice - he didn't turn out to be a good racer and/or sire, after all. Scratch him...my mistake. I had thought with a female family like that, he'd be a cinch to be good runner and sire. A half brother to a BC champion from a family of nothing but stakes winners - and his fifth dam produced a foal durable enough to run 223 times in its career!

He wound up being a gelded nobody. Gee...how could this be?

[Keith]

Storm Cat offspring that I do like as far as pedigree

1. Storm Flag Flying out of My Flag by Easy Goer (mare)
2. After Market out of Tranquility Lake by Rahy
3. Forestry out of Shared Interest by Pleasant Colony
4. Good Reward out of Heavenly Prize by Seeking The Gold
5. Pure Prize out of Heavenly Prize by Seeking The Gold
6. Sharp Cat out In Neon by Ack Ack (mare)
7. Sophisticat out of Serena's Song by Rahy (mare)
8. Grand Reward out of Serena's Song by Rahy

Storm Cat does well with Rahy bloodlines but he also did well with Alydar bloodlines and if Alydar stayed around a little longer Storm Cat may have been able to sire a Kentucky Derby winner and maybe not. People breed their top mares to Storm Cat whether it is the right cross or not. No doubt about it Storm Cat is overpriced but it does not take away the fact that he is still a great stallion. Sadler's Wells has done so much more over in Europe siring multiple classic winners abroad where Storm Cat has yet to sire a Derby winner or Breeder's Cup Classic winner here in the states. How does that warrant a $500,000 stud fee? Northern Dancer may have not sired a Kentucky Derby winner but he did sire Nijinsky II who won the Triple Crown in England.

Keith

[Maven]

Cat Thief won the BC Classic.

And i'm with Parlo, Keith. What is the criteria you're using?

Per definition, some on your list are either unproven or have pedigrees that aren't exceptionally top class.

For example, Empire Maker, Ghostzapper, Mineshaft, Kitten's Joy, Aldebaran are unproven stallions. So are you basing it soley on what a stallion accomplished on the track coupled with his pedigree?

If thats the case, I would refrain from calling Gulch a recipient of a top class pedigree.

It seems you're making your list more on the accomplishments of the first dam on the track or in the shed.

If you're going by just race record, I question Sky Classic and Strategic Mission's spot on the list... neither of which won a G1, let alone a G2, although Regal Classic was crowned canadian champion 2 year old.

[Georgerz]

I don't understand what all these has to do with Storm Cat pedigree. I thought the point of the thread was to identify current stallions with the best pedigree - not the best accomplishments.
Edited to add: This got posted after Maven's, was more regarding Keith's.

[Maven]

That's just it, his criteria is unknown. If you're basing is solely on pedigree, not accomplishments, how does Gulch get on the list, as opposed to the more blueblood Gone West, both sons of Mr. Prospector?

[Georgerz]

And again, based on pedigree, how can Storm Cat not make the list?

[Maven]

Correct... or Bluegrass Cat, Bernstein, Forestry, Giant's Causeway, Good Reward, Grand Reward, Hennessy, Hold That Tiger, Tale of the Cat, etc, all of which have better race record and/or pedigrees than some of the original list.

[Rokeby Forever]

Bluegrass Cat, Pure Prize, and Good Reward, huh? Talk about a sire riding coattails!!!

Maven wrote, "If thats the case, I would refrain from calling Gulch a recipient of a top class pedigree."

Jameela was a top handicap mare in her day, on top of being one of the best mud fillies of all time. Her family was weak, but it didn't stop Jameela from becoming a top racemare and producer with Mr. P - Gulch was a heck of a racehorse - good enough to survive both LeRoy Jolley and Lukas.

As far as a filly's race class popping up from nowhere, I think Xtra Heat is a good parallel to Jameela. There's certainly nothing in her family to suggest that she'd be multiple Grade 1 or an Eclipse winner...and yet she was.

The point: Is it fair to say that Gulch/Jameela produced a foal better than anything Storm Cat/Xtra heat ever will? Some sires can overcome a broodmare's weak tail line....some can't and ride on coattails.

[Maven]

As opposed to A.P. Indy, Kingmambo, Smart Strike, Galileo, Mineshaft, Sky Classic, Lemon Drop Kid, etc. who are all out of some of the best racemares and/or producers of the last 30 years.