Oklahoma changing its Okie bred rules

aurora · Postby **aurora** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:35 pm

The OTAWINS site says there will be a public meeting to discuss the changes (yeah, right). Essentially it looks like you will have to breed every other year to an OK accredited stallion. Not sure what other rules they are proposing since the .PDF file didn't download properly for me. Of course the OK Bred officers are mainly stud farm owners/ managers. So all the broodmare owners will have to help support maybe 6 stud farms. Seems fair (NOT). What they don't realize is that as a broodmare owner there are maybe 3 stallions in the whole state worth breeding to (NOT). Anyone want to buy some nice Okie bred accredited mares?

Bedouwia · Postby **Bedouwia** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:23 pm

I think that this would be a very good change for Oklahoma in that it would make it possible for people to afford to bring good stallions to your state. Texas has not improved under our rules. If things do not improve here and you make that rule change, expect more movement north of the Red River. Just my opinion.

Bedouwia

cng · Postby **cng** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:48 pm

That is how the rules used to be - breed in state every 2 years. No one liked it except a few big stud farms. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. To do this will reduce the quality of horses and racing in the state. It is just fine the way it is. But then I'm long past breeding anything, anyway.

fletch621 · Postby **fletch621** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:36 pm

I am pretty sure Louisiana has a similar rule and it seems to have worked pretty good down there. I think it is a good thing as it gives stallion owners incentive to purchase better stallions since they know they have a better shot of booking mares with a rule like this. Higher quality stallions getting higher quality mares (that would normally be sent to out of state stallions in kentucky EVERY year) equals higher quality foals and a stronger state program. That is all just my opinion...

Roger · Postby **Roger** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:42 pm

Sometimes we tend to look at issues from our perspective only. The statebred breeding industry needs a mix of protection for the stallion owners and the mare owners. I feel that it is missleading to call a horse a Texas bred when its sire stands out of state and the dam moves to the state just for foaling in that state. To me its about whats best for the breeder of statebreds in the business climate of that state. In Texas until we get slots, I feel that we should have a closed book and a Texasbred would be a horse by a stallion standing in Texas out of a mare residing in Texas. In Oklahoma, you have more purse money, but you still need a program that takes care of the stallion owners and the mare owners. Every other year does that. Just my opinion.

Danzig · Postby **Danzig** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:42 pm

It's their state-bred program...Let them do whatever the Hell they want to do with it.

cng · Postby **cng** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:01 pm

It's not like the stallion awards are going to out of state stallions. They aren't and for the smaller breeder they are doing OK if they want to go through the aggravation having a stud, they do better under the current system. The stallion awards are better now for breeders without diluting them with more stallions. With the market the way it is, you are wiser to buy mares in foal and bring them into state and foal them. Keep the foal and give the mare away, if she is old or sell her. There are not that many horses I would want to breed to. Sadly there are not that many farms I would want to send a mare to. Too many times when you pull through the gate you hear a loud KA CHING! and it will continue daily for months.

aardvark · Postby **aardvark** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:16 pm

Owning a stallion in a state bred program is like Obama's spread the wealth programs. It costs more to breed out of state and there are many more risks inherent. These are the factors that should encourage a mare owner to stay home and breed locally. Not some mandate that says if you want to run the horses you raise and breed in this state you have to breed every other year to a 1K-3K stud here.

A stallion owner chooses to be a stallion owner and hopefully makes a selection that will benefit the breed and racing. If the stallion has no book, then move him to another state where the mare population might fit better.

The goal should always be to produce the best race horse possible and in most cases that will not be a local stallion.

aurora · Postby **aurora** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:57 am

If I have a nice mare and I live in Oklahoma why should I want to dirty her pedigree by breeding to cast-offs? The stallions that are here now are here becasuse they can't make the cut in Kentucky (or New York) There are many more mare owners here that breed than there are stallion owners (farms) that breed commercially here in Ok. I can count them: Diamond G, Oklahoma Equine, Mighty Acres. These boys have the stallion business all but sewed up. The rule changes will benefit THREE farms while forcing mare owners to breed to an Okie bred stallion every other year.

And there is something else, correct me if I am wrong, there is no provision if I breed in good faith to a Okie accredited stallion and the mare doesnt' get in foal. The live foal rate for OK is somewhere around 60% (last time I looked). And the mare might NEVER produce a "subsequent foal must be from an Ok Accredited stallion. especially in the case of some older mare. And I also didn't see when this rule would take effect, we are in the middle of breeding season now and decisions have already been made.

Roger · Postby **Roger** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:26 am

aardvark wrote:Owning a stallion in a state bred program is like Obama's spread the wealth programs. It costs more to breed out of state and there are many more risks inherent. These are the factors that should encourage a mare owner to stay home and breed locally. Not some mandate that says if you want to run the horses you raise and breed in this state you have to breed every other year to a 1K-3K stud here.

A stallion owner chooses to be a stallion owner and hopefully makes a selection that will benefit the breed and racing. If the stallion has no book, then move him to another state where the mare population might fit better.

The goal should always be to produce the best race horse possible and in most cases that will not be a local stallion.

I don't disagree with your logic and if someone has a quality mare, they should breed her to best horse in their price range. State-bred programs (in my opinion) are designed to support a breeding industry in the state by providing extra opportunities and funds to breeders who are going run their stock in the state. Most differences in opinion come from the bottom up or the trickle down philosophies. Bottom up says, provide money to the breeder and the breeder will breed better stock, Trickle down folks say breed the very best where ever it is and you will get better stock. The problem with the trickle down is most of those horses leave the breeding pool and go to other states.

Roger · Postby **Roger** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:32 am

aurora wrote:If I have a nice mare and I live in Oklahoma why should I want to dirty her pedigree by breeding to cast-offs? The stallions that are here now are here becasuse they can't make the cut in Kentucky (or New York) There are many more mare owners here that breed than there are stallion owners (farms) that breed commercially here in Ok. I can count them: Diamond G, Oklahoma Equine, Mighty Acres. These boys have the stallion business all but sewed up. The rule changes will benefit THREE farms while forcing mare owners to breed to an Okie bred stallion every other year.

And there is something else, correct me if I am wrong, there is no provision if I breed in good faith to a Okie accredited stallion and the mare doesnt' get in foal. The live foal rate for OK is somewhere around 60% (last time I looked). And the mare might NEVER produce a "subsequent foal must be from an Ok Accredited stallion. especially in the case of some older mare. And I also didn't see when this rule would take effect, we are in the middle of breeding season now and decisions have already been made.

My question would be, if your mare is that good, why would you want an Oklahoma-bred. The real money is New York and California. Oklahoma is great place to raise horse, but a New York-bred out of a Kentucky stallion can make you rich.

cng · Postby **cng** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:15 pm

Roger wrote:
aurora wrote:If I have a nice mare and I live in Oklahoma why should I want to dirty her pedigree by breeding to cast-offs? The stallions that are here now are here becasuse they can't make the cut in Kentucky (or New York) There are many more mare owners here that breed than there are stallion owners (farms) that breed commercially here in Ok. I can count them: Diamond G, Oklahoma Equine, Mighty Acres. These boys have the stallion business all but sewed up. The rule changes will benefit THREE farms while forcing mare owners to breed to an Okie bred stallion every other year.

And there is something else, correct me if I am wrong, there is no provision if I breed in good faith to a Okie accredited stallion and the mare doesnt' get in foal. The live foal rate for OK is somewhere around 60% (last time I looked). And the mare might NEVER produce a "subsequent foal must be from an Ok Accredited stallion. especially in the case of some older mare. And I also didn't see when this rule would take effect, we are in the middle of breeding season now and decisions have already been made.

My question would be, if your mare is that good, why would you want an Oklahoma-bred. The real money is New York and California. Oklahoma is great place to raise horse, but a New York-bred out of a Kentucky stallion can make you rich.

$50 per day in OK - $100 up per day in CA & NY. Less competition. Not that much difference in state bred and overnight purses in OK and CA/NY. In addition to not having to travel across the continent to watch you horses run. Enough reason?

tinners way · Postby **tinners way** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:36 pm

The Oklahoma program will still provide the opportunity to breed to the KY stallion and make a "ton of money." As for the question if you mare does not get in foal, I would think the Oklahoma accredidation on the breedback would allow validation that the mare was bred back based on the stud farms report of mares bred.

60% live foal rate is most likely two factors. The breeding farms expertise in covering mares and the care the mare receives during gestation. Regardless of where you breed you should always check on a farms live foal rate vs. report of mares bred.

Most state bred programs serve a purpose. In Oklahoma it is one of the reasons that slot money is flowing to purses- they expect some economic investment. If that is not done, watch the money go away just as quickly as it came. Then you can breed where ever you like, you will be back to running for 1/6th of the purse. If it simply flowed to purses, and some teeth were not put in the breeding industry, what would keep any of the money in state?

Joltman · Postby **Joltman** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:58 pm

There are a couple of stallions in OK that can throw a real runner - Lucky Lionel comes to mind

jm

aardvark · Postby **aardvark** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:35 pm

Roger wrote: I don't disagree with your logic and if someone has a quality mare, they should breed her to best horse in their price range.

Can't do it. The programs are set in such a way that the only way to breed to a commerical stallion year after year is to move the mare to Kentucky.

Roger wrote: State-bred programs (in my opinion) are designed to support a breeding industry in the state by providing extra opportunities and funds to breeders who are going run their stock in the state.

They are designed to support stallion owners and increase a local population of progeny from those stallions.

Roger wrote: Most differences in opinion come from the bottom up or the trickle down philosophies. Bottom up says, provide money to the breeder and the breeder will breed better stock, Trickle down folks say breed the very best where ever it is and you will get better stock. The problem with the trickle down is most of those horses leave the breeding pool and go to other states.

I am surprised that you choose the blue way when it comes to horses and the red way when it comes to government. Mandated in-state stallion use comes close to unfair trade. Your argument is that I can still choose to breed my mare anywhere, but the way state programs are tied to sales there is no way I can breed a prospect with no state affiliation and make a profit.