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 Post subject: Re: Here is MY vote
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:17 pm 
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Chestnut - Roan (it does exist)

yep, sure does, got on on the 26th of this Month.

http://www.geocities.com/rhftn02/tbjcaphacolored09.html

see BUDWEISER at the bottom, the only solid chestnut he has is around his ears and upper neck, all other is a beautiful roan with dark chstnut spot throughout.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:37 pm 
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Budweiser is not a ROAN in its true meaning. He is a Sabino / Rabicano.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:43 pm 
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Ok, I'll go for that, LOL.........but does a roan just refer to greys?
It seems in sale catalogs, roans are always some dark to light color of grey? One of Allamystique's bay filly's GLAD ITS A GIRL out of OOPSITAGIRL, the filly is roaned throughout her barrel/flanks, but registered as bay.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:00 am 
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Sorry I have to agree to disagree on this...at least the roan and black bay part :D

Base colors
1. Chestnut
2. Black
3. Bay
4. White--true white

So, technically the list is...
01. WHITE --
02. CHESTNUT--
03. PALOMINO--
04. CREMELLO --
05. BAY--
06. BUCKSKIN --
07. PERLINO--
08. BLACK-- 09. SMOKY BLACK--
10. SMOKY CREAM--

Black Bay isn't technically a color as the horse is bay, just as liver chestnut etc.
Roan does not exist in thoroughbreds, it's either due to sabino or rabicano
GREY--possibly the horses base color and then add the modifier--GREY? It is rather frustrating to see a grey horse and not know what it's color actually is.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:09 am 
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SouthernStar wrote:
Sorry I have to agree to disagree on this...at least the roan and black bay part :D

Base colors
1. Chestnut
2. Black
3. Bay
4. White--true white

So, technically the list is...
01. WHITE --
02. CHESTNUT--
03. PALOMINO--
04. CREMELLO --
05. BAY--
06. BUCKSKIN --
07. PERLINO--
08. BLACK-- 09. SMOKY BLACK--
10. SMOKY CREAM--

Black Bay isn't technically a color as the horse is bay, just as liver chestnut etc.
Roan does not exist in thoroughbreds, it's either due to sabino or rabicano
GREY--possibly the horses base color and then add the modifier--GREY? It is rather frustrating to see a grey horse and not know what it's color actually is.


reedhill wrote:
Ok, I'll go for that, LOL.........but does a roan just refer to greys?
It seems in sale catalogs, roans are always some dark to light color of grey? One of Allamystique's bay filly's GLAD ITS A GIRL out of OOPSITAGIRL, the filly is roaned throughout her barrel/flanks, but registered as bay.


Actually, I believe (New Zealand?) there has actually been a line of roans found. True roans, identifiable by the genotype ;)
Greys are NOT roans - no matter what stage of their fading they're in.
I despise the whole blackbay silliness. Every bay is a black underneath the agouti!
However, we'll never get THAT one by the JC.
I'd keep it simple.
Black
Bay
Chestnut
Grey
Roan
Pinto (base colour), list type if needed or possible.
Dilution gene (list one or two copies, which type - cremello 1x, 2x, sabino, overo 1x, 2x, roan 1x, 2x)
JMO ;)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:28 am 
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@ Southern Star

So what are you calling these:

Lavender Fields - TB filly - bay roan
Image


Pink Floyd - TB colt - red roan
Image


Slip Catch - TB mare - bay roan
Image

Slip Catch had so far 4 roan offspring and I think everyone will agree that these are TRUE roans.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:40 am 
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:shock: Definately not rabicano with that dark red head.
COOL! looks like a RED ROAN......in QH terminology. :D


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:39 am 
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Do you have numbers for the colour when you fill in a foals registration in the US/Canada?
We just have have a box asking us to write colour in the UK.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:22 am 
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truly - there are little boxes which we can check off. If its not there, it doesnt exist in the eyes of the JC! ;)

Here are my suggestions:

01. WHITE --
02. ROAN -- I am going to suggest this one as a totally separate category from grey ... :)
03. GRAY --
04. SILVER-DAPPLE -- Doesn't exist in TB's
05. CREMELLO --
06. PALOMINO --
07. SORREL -- Doesn't exist in TB's is Chestnut
08. CHESTNUT --
09. CHAMPAGNE -- Doesn't exist in TB's
10. LIVER-CHESTNUT-- Not needed
11. PERLINO --
12. BUCKSKIN --
13. DUN -- Doesn't exist in TB's
14. RED-DUN -- Doesn't exist in TB's
15. BAY --
16. DARK-BAY -- Not needed
17. DARK-BROWN -- Doesn't exist in TB's
18. GRULLA -- Doesn't exist in TB's
19. BLACK --
20. PINTO -- not needed
21. OVERO -- not needed
22. TOBIANO -- Doesn't exist in TB's
23. APPALOOSA BLANKET -- Doesn't exist in TB's
24. APPALOOSA LEOPARD -- Doesn't exist in TB's
25. SMOKY BLACK
26. SMOKY CREAM

And having said the appaloosa patterns dont exist in TB's, what would one call "Showmethemoolah"?!

Image

Gwen - thanks for posting those roan shots - I'd only ever seen Slip Catch before and not the others...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:17 am 
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Showmethemoolah I would suspect to be Rabicano but who knows maybe there was an Appy gallopping by at some centuries ago as it truly looks like a blanket.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:35 am 
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Showmethemoolah is a heavily expressed rabicano.

And yes there are a handful of "supposed" True Roans, however they are 1. not in the US and there are at most ten of them, and its debatable whether it IS true roan or just something mimicking true roan. They have not been identified by genotype because the roan mutation has no been found yet.

I see absolutely no reason to put "roan" in the database for these horses because of the above. And I also wouldnt put it in because it wouldn't be used for just those handful of horses. You would end up with the same problem we have now. Grays being listed as roans.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:12 am 
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Ok I see, Thanks TC for answering.

Our forms are a little different and the vet has to fill the ID part in and take bloods for DNA...I believe you guys can fill ID forms and pluck hairs yourself? is that true?
We give the vet the relevant info eg. date of birth and sire and dam, but they fill in colour by word not number and draw the description and microchip and draw blood at the same time within a month of birth.
As we haven't had a colour born over here yet that isn't allowed I don't know what would happen...although I do know a vet would not write bay if he saw a buckskin in front of his eyes.

I don't think it would be necessary to have all the patterns listed because they could be used as a generic term..I do think the patterns should be described in the ID part of the form and any DNA colour test result could be added to that description if wanted.
I just think bombarding the ISBC with too many changes will hit a brick wall.
My suggestions would be:
Chestnut
Bay
Dark bay/Brown (I don't think people breeding these colours would worry about about the DNA difference)
Black
Cremello
Palomino
Smokey Cream
Perlino
Buckskin
Smokey Black
All the above colours as base colours and then add any of the following to a base colour eg. Bay-Overo
Max Sabino (for all white/medicine hats and loads of white)
Min Sabino(for ones with a belly spot)
Roan(if they really do exist)
Grey(should be in this catagory as nearly always have to send back to change colour when older)
Overo (generic term for most patterns eg. tobiano. tovero)

I don't know the number codes so haven't written any :)


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:22 am 
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Just thinking what would good is if the DNA colour results were sent into the JC and they stamped those on the description part of a passport/registration papers , eg. Cr/Cr e/e A/A :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:46 am 
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Hi Truly
thats what I think should happen to truly you are so right, :D
if it was done there could be no mix ups.

VALENCAY (the actual name was VALENÇAY), was a chestnut paint Thoroughbred, who was auctioned at Deauville as a yearling. Data provided by Jorge A. Martínez.

Tobiano should be included as a Patten unless Jorge is wrong
http://www.pedigreequery.com/valencay2
in your papers Jorge you suggest he was Tobiano.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:09 am 
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The tobiano pattern no longer exists in the breed if it ever even was in the breed.

Tobiano rarely hides enough to be truly "missed" and DEFINITELY not for generation after generation after generation.


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