FF 4-r (Zenyatta)

[vineyridge]

It's a British family, but it looks as if it, like 23-b, has become most successful in North America. It's been here even longer than 23-b.

Does anyone know if it lives today through any branch other than the North American one which goes back to Maria Slamerkin? It looks as if the root Cub Mare was off on her own little sideshoot from the rest of Family 4.

[Pan Zareta]

Does anyone know if it lives today through any branch other than the North American one which goes back to Maria Slamerkin? It looks as if the root Cub Mare was off on her own little sideshoot from the rest of Family 4.

The Cub *mare (Delancey's) is the taproot of the 4-r branch of FF #4. Maria Slamerkin and Ruth Blackeyes were her only proven daus. ref. Harrison (Early American Turf Stock, 1:206) in correction of Bruce's entry ASB 1:79. Ruth Blackeyes' line went extinct, at least by stud book record, in the mid 19th cent.

[Matchemforever]

Interesting. In this country, the line seems to live on through Miss Obstinate, as mentioned in another forum:

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/truenick ... yatta.aspx

Miss Obstinate had three crosses of Maria Slamerkin with two of them on her dam side. I wonder if that concentration has to do with dam lines carrying on.

Man O' War is 4c. Will have to search back and see where that diverged from the root 4. What was the American line in his pedigree that the British would not recognize?

[Pan Zareta]

Man O' War is 4c. Will have to search back and see where that diverged from the root 4.

At Bay Bloody Buttocks (1729), the tap of 4-b. Her line was further subdivided at Maniac (1806) the tap of 4-c, and several other points. The Cub *mare's 3d dam was half sister to Bay Bloody Buttocks.

What was the American line in his pedigree that the British would not recognize?

Spendthrift's dam.

[Matchemforever]

Thanks Pan Zareta.

Duly copied for further "look see" when I have time!

Interesting that the Cub mare carries another familial line to Bay Bloody Buttocks.

[vineyridge]

Is this the only case of a purely American family branch in the Bobinsky setup? That is to say that the taproot mare was an import and her descendants were all here.

Hastings had both Lexington (bad) and Florine (even worse), as she is A-3

[Pan Zareta]

Is this the only case of a purely American family branch in the Bobinsky setup? That is to say that the taproot mare was an import and her descendants were all here.

Family 12 is another Lowe-numbered (English) family with an American branch. *Diana 1754 is the tap of 12-b. ETA: technically this branch is not exclusively American, but the line from *Diana's only known foal produced in England died out in the early 19th cent.

and btw,

In this country, the line seems to live on through Miss Obstinate

Miss Obstinate's branch may be the most prolific, but it's definitely not the only branch of 4-r active in this country. Three of Maria Slamerkins' daus., Dido, Hunt's Moll & the *Obscurity mare, are still active here in tf, and some active lines tracing to Hunt's Moll don't go through Miss Obstinate.

[Bettina]

Hallo,
the "Fam. 4-r is represented in Germany, too. The German taproot mare is Nera di Bicci (by Grand Parade) imported 1926. She was purchased for the Erlenhof Stud from Mr. Tesio himself.

She turned out a very important foundationmare in my homecountry. Herr family was a immediate success with the unbeaten filly nereide (by Laland), her direct damline is unfortunately extinct.

Other winners from her damline are Neckar (German Derby winner), Niederlander, Novelle, Nebos, Nikos, Nadjar, Next Desert (German Derby winner) etc. and recently Night Magic (Gr. Preis von Baden-Baden).

Here is the damline of the German Branch:
Fam. 4-r Next Desert (C) by Desert Style, Night Devil (C) by Nebos, Nebos (C) by Caro, Nuas (F) by Aspros, Nereide (F) by Laland
Fam. Catnip Nearco, Niccolo Dell’Arca
Night Petticoat (Petoski) – Night Rockette (Rocket) – Night Life (Priamos) – Nigeria (Right Boy) – Nona (Oise) - Naxos (Ticino) - Nixe (Arjaman) - Nanon (Graf Isolani) - Nella da Gubbio (Grand Parade) - Nera di Bicci (Tracery) - Catnip (Spearmint)


From the 4-b branch is the German Sire Herold (by Dark Ronald) and another strain via "Chain Stitch" to Kallisto.

Kallisto (C) by Sternkonig, Kondor (C) by Cagliostro, Königssee (C) by Soderini
Kalinikta (Konigsstuhl) - Kingsi (Obermaat) - Kings Story (Frontal) - Königskrone (Neckar) - Königsmacht (Magnat) - Königswiese (Wahnfried) - Contessa Oleanda (Oleander) - Contessa Maddalena (Landgraf) - Cresta (Polymelus) - Chain Stich (St. Serf) - Needlecase (Common) - Needles (Lowlander) - Beauharnais (See Saw)


best regards from Germany,
Bettina

[vineyridge]

Back one generation from Catnip, Sibola was an export from America.

[Pan Zareta]

4-m is another 'American branch' of family 4. Its taproot, Magnolia (USA) 1841 ch f x *Glencoe, is the only daughter of *Myrtle (ch f 1834 x Mameluke - Bobadilla x Bobadil) still active in tf.

Hill et al. 2002 sampled 10 individuals from family 4 by stud book record and found the same mtDNA haplotype in all of them (a sub-haplogroup B2 type labelled 'J' within their study). Among all GenBank sub-haplogroup B2 samples that are defined by breed, only 2 samples, one from an Arab and one from a Mesenskaya, had the same markers as haplotype 'J' in the most hypervariable d-loop region. The breed population in these samples is best characterized as northern European and Euro-Asian. Save one sequence from an Andalusian it's notable for an absence of Spanish breeds and their derivatives.

Bettina, Hildary (USA br f 1905 x *Artillery - Swanhilda x Riley, ff a90) was exported to Germany in 1908. Do you happen to have any references to the importer, owner(s) or produce of this mare? TIA.

[Bettina]

Hallo,
regarding "Hildary". Yes, I did found her name in the Import register of Vol. 15 in the German Thoroughbred Studbook. Her name isn't listed in the broodmare section. It is very likely, she was only imported for racing. It could be possible, she died during training (diseases or accident.)
No progeny is listed in the following volumes.

regards, Bettina

[diomed]

Ah, the Jane Hunt family...Huge source of speed.(Nearco, etc)
Most people don't know this but it is alive in the QH breed as well.

[Pan Zareta]

Hallo,
regarding "Hildary". Yes, I did found her name in the Import register of Vol. 15 in the German Thoroughbred Studbook. Her name isn't listed in the broodmare section. It is very likely, she was only imported for racing. It could be possible, she died during training (diseases or accident.)
No progeny is listed in the following volumes.

Bettina, thank you very much for checking.

PZ

[onalimb]

Ahh ..4r the root of my problem child gelding.. maybe someday soon we will see if he can run..and do his family proud...