Hi all: Went to Charles Town last night to see a gelding in the 6th race run. Everything is great until the horses begin to load and low and behold the horse I drove 3 hours to see, is scratched by the state vet. The Vet says he is lame.
After the gelding is returned to the barn, the gelding is found to be sound. Note a so-called sound horse in the 7th race goes down injurying a jockey. Hmmmmm, maybe this Vet should take up landscaping or dishwashing.
So what is going on at Charles Town? It is apparent that the horsemen and horsewomen in WV and across the middle Atlantic need to take a closer look at the CT operation from top to bottom. Numerous breakdowns have been reported recently on their so-call new surface which according to sources has underlying base pot holes. Further, if WV state VETs are excluding sound horses from running, they are costing owners and trainers bucks. They certainly cost me in time and gas. Are maybe they are excluding them for other reasons?
This is not the first time I've heard of shady dealings CT. It's the kind of place that horsepeople keep their mouths shut for fear of retribution. Heavy handed racing secretary, maybe? Inattentive stewards? Whatever the problems, we need to stay on top of WV or it will cost all of us. Something is definitely not right. Maybe we should all drop a note to the WV Racing Commission noting our concerns. Thanks for your ear. Sincerely - Shammy
CHARLES TOWN - ANOTHER LOOK?
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
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Shammy Davis
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The Feb 2005 MidAtlantic Thoroughbred publication has an interesting article on the very topics that have been discussed in the forums about CT. Not only is there a review of the situation of the track surface but interestingly there is mention of the divide between track management and the "horsemen".
Unfortunately the article only summarizes what we have been discussing here with no solutions. and the response of track management for handling "out spoken horsemen" is to ban them from the track or cut their stalls.... so what recourse is there for an owner whose horse may have been unfairly scratched?
Unfortunately the article only summarizes what we have been discussing here with no solutions. and the response of track management for handling "out spoken horsemen" is to ban them from the track or cut their stalls.... so what recourse is there for an owner whose horse may have been unfairly scratched?
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wilf
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I do sympathise with both of your predicaments. Dealing with management on sensitive issues like that can very acrimonious and then of course damaging to local horsemen who are heavily invested close to the track and jump into the fray to get things changed.Of course horsemen are not known for their negotiating skills nor for sticking together for that matter. To have a powerful 3rd party such as the media on your side might influence the state racing commissions to take action as it really is their responsibility to see that certain standards are maintained where racing is conducted.Best Wishes
It is friggin' Charlestown, West Virginia for gosh sakes...
The thoroughbred capital of the world, Kentucky, tends to punish its industry (and has head-scratching drug policies).
California, (you know that state whose inhabitants tend to think the rest of the country is uneducated or just plain wrong when it doesn't agree with them), cannot get out of its own way regarding sales, drug policies, etc.
Maryland seems content on seeing how many different ways it can try to run the industry out of the state.
New York is acting surprised that there may have been illegal activities and possibly "mafia", (which is, by the way a dead term), influences.
... and you are complaining that some little track in WEST VIRGINIA may have problems? Well... okay, I'm with you... just don't act so indignant or surprised... it is a racino... it is a questionably regulated industry... and it is CHARLESTOWN. Just be happy it even exists... and write a stream of letters to the track, to the West Virginia racing commission (by the way, have they hired a head for the WV horsemen's association yet... if so, send them a letter... the office is at the Charlestown track). Also, don't be surprised if they "rule" you off...
Anyone still thinking there is not a need for a National Racing Office (one with some teeth).
The thoroughbred capital of the world, Kentucky, tends to punish its industry (and has head-scratching drug policies).
California, (you know that state whose inhabitants tend to think the rest of the country is uneducated or just plain wrong when it doesn't agree with them), cannot get out of its own way regarding sales, drug policies, etc.
Maryland seems content on seeing how many different ways it can try to run the industry out of the state.
New York is acting surprised that there may have been illegal activities and possibly "mafia", (which is, by the way a dead term), influences.
... and you are complaining that some little track in WEST VIRGINIA may have problems? Well... okay, I'm with you... just don't act so indignant or surprised... it is a racino... it is a questionably regulated industry... and it is CHARLESTOWN. Just be happy it even exists... and write a stream of letters to the track, to the West Virginia racing commission (by the way, have they hired a head for the WV horsemen's association yet... if so, send them a letter... the office is at the Charlestown track). Also, don't be surprised if they "rule" you off...
Anyone still thinking there is not a need for a National Racing Office (one with some teeth).
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Shammy Davis
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KAL: I'm sorry 
, but I don't get your drift and I'm going to refrain from coming down on you not because I'm a polite person, but because I think what you wrote and what you were thinking were two different things. It takes big bucks to get a horse to the track whether its in WV or KY. I guess the jokes about WV are better than those about KY or CA, but I was brought up in the hills of VA and I was taught to be honest and to be halfway competent concerning what I do. The actions of this particular VET were incompetent, the same as if he/she had killed your cat during an office examination. If the subsurface of the track is full of pot holes and your horse is killed, the management of the track is incompetent. Take off your cowboy hat and put on your thinking cap and I'll meet you politely at the WV border for a discussion on good common "horse" sense. Otherwise, if you really meant what you wrote, keep your cowboy hat and tend to yourself in the BULL ring. Sincerely, Shammy
, but I don't get your drift and I'm going to refrain from coming down on you not because I'm a polite person, but because I think what you wrote and what you were thinking were two different things. It takes big bucks to get a horse to the track whether its in WV or KY. I guess the jokes about WV are better than those about KY or CA, but I was brought up in the hills of VA and I was taught to be honest and to be halfway competent concerning what I do. The actions of this particular VET were incompetent, the same as if he/she had killed your cat during an office examination. If the subsurface of the track is full of pot holes and your horse is killed, the management of the track is incompetent. Take off your cowboy hat and put on your thinking cap and I'll meet you politely at the WV border for a discussion on good common "horse" sense. Otherwise, if you really meant what you wrote, keep your cowboy hat and tend to yourself in the BULL ring. Sincerely, Shammy
Hey Shammy ,
Are you sure it was the Vet who scratched your horse and not the rider?Sounds like maybe the rider had something to do with it.In my jurisdiction when a rider doesnt like the feel of a horse on post parade and they tell the Doc that they (the rider) dont like it the Vet has no choice but to scratch the horse as if the Vet says cowboy up and the horse breaks down and the rider is injured were talking major lawsuit.Also you reported that the horse was sound when it returned to the barn but unfortunatley you can always see lameness or a horse being of when it has no weight on its back.Has the rider who on the horse ever riden it before?Does the horse have a different way of going?Just my 2 cents.
Ryeno
Are you sure it was the Vet who scratched your horse and not the rider?Sounds like maybe the rider had something to do with it.In my jurisdiction when a rider doesnt like the feel of a horse on post parade and they tell the Doc that they (the rider) dont like it the Vet has no choice but to scratch the horse as if the Vet says cowboy up and the horse breaks down and the rider is injured were talking major lawsuit.Also you reported that the horse was sound when it returned to the barn but unfortunatley you can always see lameness or a horse being of when it has no weight on its back.Has the rider who on the horse ever riden it before?Does the horse have a different way of going?Just my 2 cents.
Ryeno
"The easiest way to end up with a million dollars in the horseracing business is to start with 3 million!"
The horse in question had two workouts at CT in the previous month with the jockey on board- and she said she liked the horse and had no issues with him.
She was on him for the race- She did not think the horse was off just the vet. When the saddle came off behind the starting gate- all this happened as the horse was getting ready to be loaded- the vet said "well I guess he's not lame afterall" but at that point the race was off and running. The jockey did not think the horse was lame- and the horse was not lame back in the barn.
Anyway- water under the bridge now.
She was on him for the race- She did not think the horse was off just the vet. When the saddle came off behind the starting gate- all this happened as the horse was getting ready to be loaded- the vet said "well I guess he's not lame afterall" but at that point the race was off and running. The jockey did not think the horse was lame- and the horse was not lame back in the barn.
Anyway- water under the bridge now.
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Stellaspeed
- 2yo Maiden
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Not the Vet
IT'S NOT THE VET !
That vet is an advocate for the horse and rider, not the track's profit, owner's profit, or trainer's profit. Her job is to ensure the safety of everything on that racetrack. She had no baseline to judge that colt's way of going, and she erred on the side of safety....I think Josh Boyd and Gary Boulanger would have preferred that, wouldn't you?
As to Charlestown, nobody trains there...it's a swap meet for pete's sake, and the horses are expendable, trainers are begging for stalls, races are filled, so why would they care? The horses are merely acceptable losses, collateral damage, friendly fire k.i.a's, and until something catastrophic happens to a jock (God forbid), and the track gets sued, this will continue.
That vet is an advocate for the horse and rider, not the track's profit, owner's profit, or trainer's profit. Her job is to ensure the safety of everything on that racetrack. She had no baseline to judge that colt's way of going, and she erred on the side of safety....I think Josh Boyd and Gary Boulanger would have preferred that, wouldn't you?
As to Charlestown, nobody trains there...it's a swap meet for pete's sake, and the horses are expendable, trainers are begging for stalls, races are filled, so why would they care? The horses are merely acceptable losses, collateral damage, friendly fire k.i.a's, and until something catastrophic happens to a jock (God forbid), and the track gets sued, this will continue.
I know, I know, I know how much time, effort, and EMOTION it can drain out of you to get a horse to the starting gate. It feels as if your whole life rides on that race. To have that taken away via error is heartbreaking and maddening.
However, I would rather have someone err on the side of caution rather than err on the other side and watch my horse get hurt or worse. Case in point: A Horse (who we no longer own so I won't post the name) took forever to get into his first race. He was immature and silly for a while, and was also one of those "Murphy's Law" horses, so everyone was on top of the world that we would finally see him race. This horse had never been stupid in the gates before and wasn't a nervous type, so I'm not sure what happened next (although we have a few theories), but let's just say he acted up in the gates and they backed him out and checked him. They said he was fine, stuck him back in, and started the race. We saw him jump out of the gates and then take a sharp duck sideways, then run last all the way to the wire. When the jockey brought him to the rail, we saw a line of blood flowing from a gash in his hip flowing all the way down his leg to the ground.
Now, I wasn't behind the gates, so it's POSSIBLE that he injured himself leaving the gates... but SOMETHING made that horse act up in the gates, and I'm thinking that SOMETHING might have been pain! (Incidentally, he has never acted up in the gates again, although he was known to act up a bit on the way there...)
Long story short, he had a puncture wound that actually went all the way to and touched the bone, and a gash from that puncture. Thank goodness there was no bone damage, but in racing like that, the wound had "sucked" air in and the whole hip/leg filled with air and was just a real pain to heal. It did finally heal and he raced again, and even ended up winning, but the trainers played hell trying to get him to leave the gate fast... it was as if he knew it would hurt so he just didn't want to do it. Nice first race impression to make on a young horse, huh?
Now, back to CT... you all have me nervous. We're thinking of sending a horse there because he needs a 4 1/2 - 5 furlong race and they just don't write those here. He's sound as the day is long and has never had any leg problems at all, but now I'm wondering if sending him there is such a grand idea...
However, I would rather have someone err on the side of caution rather than err on the other side and watch my horse get hurt or worse. Case in point: A Horse (who we no longer own so I won't post the name) took forever to get into his first race. He was immature and silly for a while, and was also one of those "Murphy's Law" horses, so everyone was on top of the world that we would finally see him race. This horse had never been stupid in the gates before and wasn't a nervous type, so I'm not sure what happened next (although we have a few theories), but let's just say he acted up in the gates and they backed him out and checked him. They said he was fine, stuck him back in, and started the race. We saw him jump out of the gates and then take a sharp duck sideways, then run last all the way to the wire. When the jockey brought him to the rail, we saw a line of blood flowing from a gash in his hip flowing all the way down his leg to the ground.
Now, I wasn't behind the gates, so it's POSSIBLE that he injured himself leaving the gates... but SOMETHING made that horse act up in the gates, and I'm thinking that SOMETHING might have been pain! (Incidentally, he has never acted up in the gates again, although he was known to act up a bit on the way there...)
Long story short, he had a puncture wound that actually went all the way to and touched the bone, and a gash from that puncture. Thank goodness there was no bone damage, but in racing like that, the wound had "sucked" air in and the whole hip/leg filled with air and was just a real pain to heal. It did finally heal and he raced again, and even ended up winning, but the trainers played hell trying to get him to leave the gate fast... it was as if he knew it would hurt so he just didn't want to do it. Nice first race impression to make on a young horse, huh?
Now, back to CT... you all have me nervous. We're thinking of sending a horse there because he needs a 4 1/2 - 5 furlong race and they just don't write those here. He's sound as the day is long and has never had any leg problems at all, but now I'm wondering if sending him there is such a grand idea...
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"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
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Shammy Davis
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Roguelet: You should be nervous. This is simply problematic of an underlying management problem. You can defend the Vet all you want but the truth is that there is more than enough time from barn to post to determine if a horse is sound to run. This Vet shot from the hip before the 6th race and this well conditioned and well prepared horse lost. In the 7th race, a horse went down injurying the rider. I guess your defense for the Vet is that she can't catch everything. This vet needs to be supervised or fired. I wonder how much this vet would scream if we deducted the cost training et al from her salary of each sound horse she scratched based on a cursory gate exam that proved wrong. There are a good percentage of horses going down at CT. This horse had a chance to show and at the very least finish the race making the time/money invested into a training lap. Not only was the betting public robbed, but the owner/breeder, rider, and trainer were robbed also. Further, it appears that CT is not doing anything about the problems with the track subsurface. For my money, this is like the trainer who doesn't know how a horse got the milkshake. CT will act like there is no problem until something castrophic happens. The bottom line for them is their $ drawn at the end of the day. If we've made you nervous, I glad. That is the intent of this thread. You need to be educated on what is going on and investigate further. I, for one, have filed a citizen complaint against this vet w/the WV Racing Commission. Let's see if I get a reply. Sincerely, Shammy
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Stellaspeed
- 2yo Maiden
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Citizens Complaint
Wrong move.
With 10 horses in the post parade, that vet has maybe a minute to watch each horse move with a rider up, and have to evaluate how much funky movement is due to the pony horse, how much due to excitement, and what might be related to discomfort or unsoundness. Some horses walk fine, trot unsound, some trot fine, canter unsound, some canter sound, and gallop unsound....she has seconds to process that information, and then connect it to any past history she has on the horse to make a judgement as to whether it should load in that gate.
She is also very aware of the condition of that track, and has to factor that into this decision. How many times has that horse trained and galloped over that surface? Was she able to watch him during morning gallops? Is she his regular vet? Does he train on the grounds? If not, she has even less to go on.
She has responsibility for the lives of the other 9 horses and 9 riders that will be racing along that animal and would be at risk. If you want to do something to help the horses and riders, file a compaint asking why she doesn't have more help.
Bottom line is she "erred" on the side of caution, and should NOT have to factor in, EVER, the money lost by anyone when it comes to allowing an unsound animal to load in that gate.
With 10 horses in the post parade, that vet has maybe a minute to watch each horse move with a rider up, and have to evaluate how much funky movement is due to the pony horse, how much due to excitement, and what might be related to discomfort or unsoundness. Some horses walk fine, trot unsound, some trot fine, canter unsound, some canter sound, and gallop unsound....she has seconds to process that information, and then connect it to any past history she has on the horse to make a judgement as to whether it should load in that gate.
She is also very aware of the condition of that track, and has to factor that into this decision. How many times has that horse trained and galloped over that surface? Was she able to watch him during morning gallops? Is she his regular vet? Does he train on the grounds? If not, she has even less to go on.
She has responsibility for the lives of the other 9 horses and 9 riders that will be racing along that animal and would be at risk. If you want to do something to help the horses and riders, file a compaint asking why she doesn't have more help.
Bottom line is she "erred" on the side of caution, and should NOT have to factor in, EVER, the money lost by anyone when it comes to allowing an unsound animal to load in that gate.
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Shammy Davis
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STELLASPEED: 
Pretty arrogant of you to tell me "wrong move." There is absolutely nothing wrong with having an incident at the track looked at. The "wrong move" is not to say anything and pray for the best, but that's jmo. You can have yours. Why don't you write the WV board and tell them what a swell job CT is doing. They can make a decision based on the facts. If they think the vet was right. Fine. When the time comes and I have a choice to send one of my horses to WV or another state, I can make my own decision based on what I know. The "wrong move" is not weigh in with your concerns. I've had the opportunity to sit on two VA state professional boards. I'm dismayed by how few complaints and concerns are lodged by concerned citizens preceding an injurious incident. Then when someone is injured, all hell breaks loose. Where were they when the fire was just kindling Sincerely, Shammy
Pretty arrogant of you to tell me "wrong move." There is absolutely nothing wrong with having an incident at the track looked at. The "wrong move" is not to say anything and pray for the best, but that's jmo. You can have yours. Why don't you write the WV board and tell them what a swell job CT is doing. They can make a decision based on the facts. If they think the vet was right. Fine. When the time comes and I have a choice to send one of my horses to WV or another state, I can make my own decision based on what I know. The "wrong move" is not weigh in with your concerns. I've had the opportunity to sit on two VA state professional boards. I'm dismayed by how few complaints and concerns are lodged by concerned citizens preceding an injurious incident. Then when someone is injured, all hell breaks loose. Where were they when the fire was just kindling Sincerely, ShammyShammy: I'm not sure if your whole post was directed at me or just the beginning and end of it. I wasn't defending the vet, exactly. I was sort of "feeling the pain" of both sides... I would be SO upset if my horse was scratched by mistake, and totally understand what that costs the connections. I got to experience something similar first hand last Fall when the IDIOTS decided to "not ride" at Hoosier Park that night (and don't get me started on that.) However, I also was SO upset that a horse was allowed to race with a gaping wound that went to the bone. I feel that the vet, just like the gate crew, track maintenance crew, pony riders, jocks, trainers, and everyone else, should take their job VERY seriously and any indication of the opposite makes me livid. If I seemed unconcerned in my first post, I apologize.
We are considering CT for this horse because they offer the type of race that we feel he might excell at, and the tracks here don't. We picked up a horse from CT earlier this month and met a trainer that we have been in contact with and seems to be honest and caring and someone we can trust. He also comes recommended by some friends and clients who use him as well. All of these factors, plus the fact that the track is so close to a member of my family who I can trust to get over there if need be, led us to consider this as an option. We are not out to get a horse hurt, and rest assured I will look into this further before making my deicision. We've never had one break down yet (knock wood) and I'd just as soon keep it that way.
I feel that the vet, just like the gate crew, track maintenance crew, pony riders, jocks, trainers, and everyone else, should take their job VERY seriously and any indication of the opposite makes me livid. If I seemed unconcerned in my first post, I apologize.
We are considering CT for this horse because they offer the type of race that we feel he might excell at, and the tracks here don't. We picked up a horse from CT earlier this month and met a trainer that we have been in contact with and seems to be honest and caring and someone we can trust. He also comes recommended by some friends and clients who use him as well. All of these factors, plus the fact that the track is so close to a member of my family who I can trust to get over there if need be, led us to consider this as an option. We are not out to get a horse hurt, and rest assured I will look into this further before making my deicision. We've never had one break down yet (knock wood) and I'd just as soon keep it that way.
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"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
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Shammy Davis
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ROGULET: This thread is not directed at anyone in particular. You as a horseman/woman must make decisions based on the information you have. I'm just saying that sometimes little incidents can often reveal more injurious episodes and that if horses are going down at CT or the vet is not taking time to evaluate what is in front of him/her then you've got to know it. A lot of peculiar things are going on at CT. The CT barns are packed but I'm aware of somethings that makes me concerned about the management and oversight at CT. Each, by themselves, have really no impact on the decison process a owner or trainer goes through to send a horse there, but when you add them up there is reason for concern. Please, just investigate, before you make any decisions. Do that with every track, every trainer, every vet, et al. Leaving things too much to chance is looking for an accident to happen. Sincerely, Shammy
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Stellaspeed
- 2yo Maiden
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Wrong Move
Shammy , your choice to single out the vet for censure is a wrong move. She has to have one of the most thankless jobs in the country, not to mention painful. I've never met her, but have to admire her guts.
Instead of seeing to it that there might be another vet available for a second opinion, a second set of eyes on the track in the a.m. and at night, you chose to go after her for a judgement call she made based on her years of experience as a vet... it doesn't matter how many state boards you sit on, you don't have her experience..that same vet is the one who has to administer that final shot to that horse lying on the track with the broken leg, so don't you think she has every right to scratch one she thinks might end up there? Again, if you want to be part of the solution, give her some help. Do you honestly think that removing her will stop the breakdowns? Do you think that pressuring her to hesitate to scratch one will help things?
, your choice to single out the vet for censure is a wrong move. She has to have one of the most thankless jobs in the country, not to mention painful. I've never met her, but have to admire her guts.
Instead of seeing to it that there might be another vet available for a second opinion, a second set of eyes on the track in the a.m. and at night, you chose to go after her for a judgement call she made based on her years of experience as a vet... it doesn't matter how many state boards you sit on, you don't have her experience..that same vet is the one who has to administer that final shot to that horse lying on the track with the broken leg, so don't you think she has every right to scratch one she thinks might end up there? Again, if you want to be part of the solution, give her some help. Do you honestly think that removing her will stop the breakdowns? Do you think that pressuring her to hesitate to scratch one will help things?