OK Pete and other fine pedigree gurus

[TBLADY]

The mare I had consigned I ended up buying from the owner.
Mares name is Chantre X Wavering Monarch. Would be breeding in NY.
Need you input on theese stallions.

Good And Tough (an A++nick)
Wisemans Ferry (I loved this horse in person)
Say Florida Sandy (would like to see some of his get run first I think)


give your input as well as any other stallions you think would cross well and why.

[hpkingjr]

I would be unworthy to hold the spit cup for Pete and the gang but what about Ocean Terrace? You get the return of seven strains of Blue Larkspur (your mare's dominant blood). Additionally OT has two strains of Ambiorix (4x7) to return to your mare's. OT has 12 strains of Teddy to return to your mare's 7strains and three strains of La Troienne to return to your mare's 6x6 of La T. Both have lots of War Admiral and OT throws in a 5x5 Mahmoud to boot. I know zip about the three New York studs but happy selecting.

[Pete]

Hi TBLady and HP,

HP, I fall off pedestals

You did a fine job of isolating key blood that has worked with Wavering Monarch mares. His best broodmares (and he's gotten some wonderful broodmares) have return of La Troienne. He also works with Blue Larkspur. Chantre has an unusual bottom line that has a lot of Euro distance influence and lacks La Troienne but has Blue Larkspur in the 5th.

TBLady, Wavering Monarch is en exceptional broodmare sire and a wonderful consolidating source of blood. No accident that he's starting to show up on the dam side of sire pedigrees (Petionville, Military, Tejano Run and Western Borders is out of his 1/2 sister, Ruby Green) as well as his son Maria's Mon and grandson Monarchos.

It would be good to have a description of Chantre. Wavering Monarch tends to give girth, body and structure but can also get unsatisfactory front ends. His best producers need not be exceptional runners but most have shown some ability and Chantre has too (a race index of 11 with some versitility on surface). Chantre is a full sister to Scoot The Moon ($119,290) the best foal of her dam Chanson Breve.

I'm presume that you're breeding to sell and will comment based on that presumption.

I don't put a lot of stock in nick ratings. Too often they're based on the assumption that there will be inherited affinity - such as a son of Mr. Prospector will cross well with a daughter by a son of Northern Dancer.

Commercially I don't expect Good And Tough to have a lot of commercial appeal left when you'd be selling a yearling. Wiseman's Ferry and Say Florida Sandy were better choices in their first year and of the two I believe Wiseman's Ferry is a better commercial choice but I'd be just as inclined to use Roaring Fever who is a son of Storm Cat with a blue blood pedigree. Roaring Fever is well made up front - rare for a Storm Cat and a good idea for use with Wavering Monarch (but you need a mare with substance).

I don't think any of the three leverage Chantre's pedigree either.

Regal Classic is a primary choice. He was bred once to a Wavering Monarch mare (that I'm aware of), Flicker Queen, and got $840k SW Stephanotis. Regal Classic has gotten several hard hitting sound horses out of Dom Alaric mares as well including SW Zitkala.

Flicker Queen did bring back La Troienne and Chantre can't provide that.

Raffie's Majesty is an interesting pedigree to look at in hypo matings. Though he gets some respectable winners, he's not commercial.

You've already bred to Freud and I don't suggest putting all your eggs in one basket especially if you're riding the bubble.

Other than Regal Classic, I'd prefer Mr. Prospector line. I'm getting tired so I'm going to be brief.

Gold Token ties Buckpassernicely and he has become a reilable sire of winners at a good price, but with limited commercial appeal.

The stallion I would most recommend is Wheelaway. You would ride the bubble with him, but he's getting exceptional foals. He had 12 accepted to the Saratoga Preferred Sale and Fasig-Tipton felt that there were many more who could have been accepted. I've seen his foals and have one of my own and he gets excellent size and bone.

Sorry to end this quickly, but I'm falling asleep

Regards,

Pete

[Keith]

Here are some successful crosses

1. Maria's Mon by Wavering Monarch-Carlotta Maria by Caro Champion 2 year old (5x5 Nasrullah)
2. Monarchos by Maria's Mon-Regal Band by Dixieland Band ( 5x5 Ribot)won Kentucky Derby, Florida Derby, 2nd Wood Memorial S., 3rd Belmont S.
3. High Limit by Maria's Mon-Known Romance by Known Fact 1st Louisiana Derby 2nd Blue Grass S.
4. Wavering Girl by Wavering Monarch-Battle Creek Girl by His Majesty(3x4 Ribot) Champion 2 year old filly in Canada
5. Dia Monarch by Forty Niner-Wavering Girl by Wavering Monarch won $552,769 in Japan
6. Military by Danzig-Wavering Girl by Wavering Monarch won Oak Tree Turf Championship S.-Gr. I, Citation H.-Gr. II (4x5 Ribot)
7. Petionville by Seeking the Gold-Vana Turns by Wavering Monarch( 4x5 Buckpasser)won Louisiana Derby, Ohio Derby, La Jolla H., etc.
8. Pike Place Dancer by Seattle Dancer-Vana Turns by Wavering Monarch won Kentucky Oaks, California Derby, etc.
9. Prairie Bayou by Little Missouri-Whiffling by Wavering Monarch (3x4 Bold Ruler) Champion 3 year old won Preakness S., Blue Grass S., etc.
10. Flitch by Demons Begone-Whiffling by Wavering Monarch (4x5 Nasrullah,5x5 Tom Fool )won $628,796 National Museum Racing Hall of Fame S- Gr. II
., etc
11. Tejano Run by Tejano-Royal Run by Wavering Monarch(5x5 Nasrullah, 4x5 Raise a Native) won $1,166,842 2nd Kentucky Derby
12. More Royal by Mt. Livermore-Royal Run by Wavering Monarch won $200,622 Jersey Derby, Transylvania S.
13. Stephanotis by Regal Classic-Flicker Queen by Wavering Monarch won Prince of Wales S.-Gr. I

Have you thought about Hook and Ladder- Prairie Bayou is a grandson of Cox's Ridge, Hook and Ladder is out of a Cox's Ridge mare. Hook and Ladder is by Dixieland Band. Monarchos is out of a Dixieland Band mare and Monarchos is a grandson of Wavering Monarch. Hook and Ladder was also a good runner and he is standing for $3500. Hook and Ladder's 2nd dam is by Mr. Prospector. Wavering Monarch mares have crossed well with Northern Dancer line sires such as Seattle Dancer, Danzig, and Regal Classic and with Hook and Ladder you have the blood of Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector,and Cox's Ridge. Wavering Monarch also seems to like Caro, Ribot, Nasrullah, Bold Ruler, and Tom Fool bloodlines.

Keith

[TBLADY]

Keith I did think about him though I must admit just for a fleeting moment. I did take a good look at allof the stallions while I was at Lakland
I will however toss him into my "to be considered file"

I picked the Wavering Monarch mare up last night. She is a solid 16.2. I would say Med bone. Fairly correct up front maybe a touch off set in the knees (though very slight) if I were looking for a sport horse I would say she is a tad long coupled (long in the back) but is well perportioned. Good solid deep hip and long shoulder. good neck Excellent if you are a Hunter breeder...lol Hocks are set well under her and at a good angle. Her hocks do seem to be her point of soreness at this time.

Hope this discription helps

[Pete]

Hi Keith,

The idea is to narrow the choices down, not try and make a case for any stallion at all (and perhaps any stalliona t all would work).

Hook And Ladder might be a good choice and is reasonably priced.

Regards,

Pete

[Keith]

There are some other successful crosses when you consider Majestic Light.

1. King Cugat by Kingmambo-Tricky Game by Majestic Light won $1,293,782
2. Zafolia by Gone West-Gambling Fool by Majestic Light won $1,912,239 in Japan
3. Mahogany Hall by Woodman-Glimpse of Heaven by Majestic Light won $694,913
4. Olympic Charmer by Olympio-Light a Charm by Majestic Light won $499,036
5. Up an Eighth by Ferdinand-Hey Majesty by Majestic Light 4x5 Ribot won $465,923
6. Sweet Roberta by Roberto-Candy Bowl by Majestic Light won $462,860
7. Arabian Light by Fly So Free-Heartlight by Majestic Light won $431,944
8. Hitch by Cox's Ridge-Knot by Majestic Light won $425,561
9. Tobougg by Baretha-Lacovia by Majestic Light $422,860
10. Gold Fever by Forty Niner-Lead Kindly Light by Majestic Light won $480,712

I think Hook and Ladder is a good choice and a good race horse and the Majestic Light broodmare line has also had success with Cox's Ridge, Mr. Prospector, and Northern Dancer bloodlines and Hook and Ladder involves all three bloodlines. I would recommend Good and Tough over Wiseman's Ferry, Say Florida Sandy and Hook and Ladder because Good and Tough is a proven stallion. I do agree that Wheelaway is a good choice because Unbridled stallions have been successful and Wheelaway was also a successful racehorse. Good racehorses usually make the best sires and Say Florida Sandy was a great racehorse and his stud fee is reasonable because he is by Personal Flag. There are other stallion that I would also recommend

1. Dance Master
2. Domestic Dispute
3. Omega Code
4. Bowman's Band
5. Five Star Day
6. Sultry Song

I know the idea is to try to narrow down and it is getting late in the season and depending on what price you want to spend and if you want a stallion who you can get to reasonable I would also consider Rubiyat. It depends on what you want to spend and try to get to the best stallion for the money. I have two mares I would love to breed out but I do not have the money to breed them out. I wish you the best of luck in whoever you breed your mare

Keith

[Pete]

Hi Keith,

You list of 6 stallions isn't germane since none are in NY. Rubiyat as well, though I feel he's a curious choice and personally I'd not breed anything to him.

Wavering Monarch has had a differnt profile from his sire, Majestic Light. Comparisons other than what Wavering Monarch daughters have produced would expect that there are inherited affinities and that's not always the case.

Breeding to Hook And Ladder based on the success of Monarchos (Maria's Mon - Regal Band by Dixieland Band) is a stretch but has some merit. I'm not particularly fond of Dixieland Band sons who have been useful but ordinary (Citidancer, Dixie Brass, Dixieland Heat, etc.). What I do like about Hook And Ladder is that his 3rd dam, Fairway Fable is 5x5 La Troienne and Wavering Monarch has demanded affinity for her in almost any form. Wavering Monarch should pick up his Never Bend.

There's compelling direct evidence that Regal Classic can work with Wavering Monarch and Dom Alaric. He's a nice sire with sales prices increasing over the last 3 years (usually the sales prices go down when a sire is relocated to NY). He's the goto sire if you can get to him in this case.

Wheelaway's untested, but has several implied affinities that should work well with Wavering Monarch in Caro and In Reality and he brings 3 deep crosses of La Troienne. Wavering Monarch has worked well with Raise A Native brought back and I don't see anything that would make me shy away from using Wheelaway.

That's three stallions, not too long a list.

Regards,


Pete

[Keith]

Horses in New York to consider
1. Good and Tough
2. Regal Classic
3. Performing Magic
4. Wheelaway

I would either go with a proven sire like Good and Tough and Regal Classic or consider good runners Wheelaway and Performing Magic who are both good runners and are by great sires in Unbridled and Gone West. I would still consider Hook and Ladder. Dixieland Band sons have not been great but Dixie Union is not doing bad at all at stud.


Keith

[Pete]

Hi Keith, TBLady,

I felt that you made a case for Hook And Ladder. 2005 is his second year at stud and I could recommend him as a potential mate for Chantre.

I can't say the same about Good And Tough. His 2yo sales figures aren't germane. I don't see him retaining commercial appeal and unless he gets some very good horses soon, he'll just be another sire of winners (rather cheap) and Gold Token is a far better choice from that perspective (TBLady, if you're breeding to race).

I like Performing Magic - perhaps even a lot. I just don't know what to make of him. He has 2yos this year, all of 7 registered foals. He has all of 9 yearlings and was only bred 20 times in 2004. This is a BLIND RIDE on the bubble. What may be interesting is that he's owned by the Thoroughbred Corp., and they may be the only ones supporting him. Even their bad mares would be far above the NY average. I would have bred to him in his first year, perhaps second, but with so few foals, I'd wait to see if there's any life in his get. Of course, with a first crop of only 7 foals, a G3 winner gets him a pass to KY Performing Magic has been treated like a high class backyard stallion.

If I were breeding to race I might well try Performing Magic, realistically priced at $5,000. He's not big, a little less substance than most Gone West's in the hip, but I like Gone West as a potential cross for a Wavering Monarch mare.

Regards,

Pete

[TBLADY]

let me re cap...I have a budget of roughly $5000 range for this mare (give or take a little) Wheelaway at this time offers a lot of what I'm looking for...the right fee, a good solid cross, young sire soon to hit the sales and connections interested in marketing their stallion and his get. Regal Classic at $10,000 is not in my price range unless I were to purchase him through one of the sales or auctions. I'm not looking to breed until 2006 with this mare.

Good and Tough and Hook and Latter I got to see while I was at Lakland getting two mares bred to Freud, just about 2 weeks ago. Good and Tough is a big bodied animal with a ton of presense. he also has a few blacktyped horses already. Hook and Latter was much smaller built all the way around though well built and proportionate.As were his babies that I saw.

[Pete]

Hi TBLady,

We should have asked if thie was a breeding for 2005 or '06.

Esepcially if you're breeding in NY, you have no rush. KY is another matter. Use the time between now and Chantre's 2006 breeding to see how the 'playing field' develops. There may even be some new stallions arriving in NY that offer you more bang for your buck.

Regards,

Pete

[TBLADY]

WOOHOO got great news yesterday...vet came out and was D DAY for our mares... with our New York trip behind us and 2 weeks of waiting to see if our mares took during their ONE TIME-Fly By Breeding to FREUD (DRUM ROLL PLEASE- dum deiddy dum daaahhhh) BOTH ARE IN FOAL!!!! so far the big wait has just begun, but we are relieved and very please with our girls.

Now with that said- the Wavering Monarch mare did get palp'd and was found to be shut down....not unsual for a mare fresh off the track. So I'll spend a few of these long summer days getting her out in the sun shine, stabled next to any mare whos in flaming heat, and maybe even have a gelding talk nice to her a little and see if we can't jump start her without a bunch of drugs. You know...breeding season is only 6 months away!

I think we are really leaning toward Wheelaway for Chantre. So between now and the 2006 breeding season I'll see what I can do about securing a season to him.

Now the search begans for the other two mares...they are going to need new boyfriends as well. Both were for early to mid April foals in 2006 and they will be in New York when they foal and will be bred back in NY on foal heats if possible.

Mare #1 is Your Turn To Deal X Victorious
Mare #2 is Sails Are Up X Corporate Report
Again commercial value is our goal in the $5000.00 range

Your Turn To Deal I was thinking MAYBE Wisemans Ferry
This is a Stout mare with a good bit of body and mass. Very well put together in the hocks and knees, short backed, big mover, huge hip. most mistake her for a Quarter Horse with real long legs.

Sails Are Up is just a WIDDLE thing. About 16h and slight but correct and well proportioned. Big chest and shoulder, longer backed. Pictures of both can be seen on our web site www.horsepowercompany.com

[Pete]

Hi TBLady,

If you're breeding in NY, there's no reason to rush any decisions. If you're going to KY, that's a different matter (you'll need to book in the coming few months to hot stallions).

Of course thatr means that you can take your time.

I saw Becky Thomas today (Lakland North) and she says that Freud was booked to 140 mares this year.

Pete

[TBLADY]

Pete I could see why! I just prey he stays HOT and one of these nice 2 yr olds of his does well this season.At this point Chantre is the only mare I need to secure a breeding for. As I stated I think shes well suited for Wheelaway-pending for some reason his fee doesn't go through the roof.

If possible we may make it up for the Saratoga sale and if thats the case will try to swing in to see Wheelaway in person before proceeding any further.

We did consider taking Chantre to KY, but deceided if the truck and trailer are already headed to NY may as well make it a three some!