What do you think about Cetewayo?

[btcountess]

Just saw him on a posting for PA - any thoughts on how he will be as a sire?

[Denise]

I love this guy, and think he'll get LOTS of folks who want to breed eventers, hunters and jumpers, not 2yo. PA bred dirt sprinters. What's too bad is that his pedigree is a wonderful outcross for the glut of Prospector/N. Dancer in the region. He'd add a much needed dose of stamina, but probably get later bloomers, and the trouble is that people would likely not be patient enough to wait for one of these to mature and blossom.
Just my opinion; I could be wrong.

[summerhorse]

Maybe in a regional market there will be more private breeders (to race) who are willing to wait a little? One would hope so.

[Denise]

Summerhorse, here in the mid-Atlantic, if they're breeding to race, the focus will be precocious dirt horses. If they're breeding to sell, Cetewayo, like most "turfers" has zero commercial value. That's why the hunting/jumping/eventing crowd will embrace him. They don't care about getting a 2yo. ready to run. They want a stalwart rangy horse that can get a lot of ground and be ridden for many years. Money usually isn't an object with that crowd, nor is a P&L statement. That's why they're patient.
I loved watching this guy run for 7 years. He's got everything we appreciate: a rugged, stamina-laced pedigree built for the grass. But we're oddballs in our business. However, focusing on turfers, especially fillies that can go long, gives us a unique edge over the track-based trainers and owners. We also have a great secondary market for our turfers after they retire from the flat. So far, we've sold three to the jumping folks. Nice to know that if you can keep them healthy and sound, and if they get sour or just aren't fast enough anymore, they can still find a career elsewhere being competitive.

[KamiBrooks]

Okay, accepting the fact that the foals aren't going to race at 2yo and aren't going to be commercial.

What bloodlines would you cross with Cetewayo if hoping to race in the 1-1.5 mile range?

[Rick]

I would love to have a Sand Ridge filly to cross with him. That gives you line breeding to Mixed Marriage 5x6. Also you get War Relic with Anchor Ahead.

In addition that gives you speed to go with Cetewayo's stamina. Also, I bet both of these sires will give you durability.

[Taino]

Look at the hypo-mating of him with my filly, Keen Insight. To me that's a dream pedigree for the turf at 1-1/16 to 1-1/2.

[Denise]

Taino, that hypomating sure does look beautiful on paper! Let me know when you're running at Newmarket or Longchamps with that one.
Kami, the beauty of Cetewayo is that he's a perfect outcross for lots of pedigrees. Personally, I'd find a mare that traced tail female to Ribot through Graustark and double up there through full brothers (with His Majesty.)
You might get something rather "starchy" but it could run for weeks on turf and dirt, probably.
I also like daughters from Majestic Light's family with Cetewayo. That gets you Ribot through his daughter Irradiate. Some of the pedigree gurus recommend inbreeding back to great stallions and foundation mares through half brothers and sisters.
If I haven't said it enough (and I have), Ribot is my favorite stamina influence...ever! You don't get enough of him in modern pedigrees.
Back to back Arcs at a mile and a half and crazy as a loon, but undefeated in 16 starts. Can't argue with that record.

[casper10]

Keen Insight tails to Ribot's dam Romanella. Furthermore, Northfields has worked great with Pleasant Colony in the past. Even though neither of those 2 are in these pedigrees, Northfield's half brother Habitat might also work well with Pleasant Colony's sire His Majesty. The 2 brothers Keen and Diesis will be 3x3. Unfortunately you don't see many people breeding for pure stamina and turf anymore. Hopefully you are breeding to race and are very patient. Did Keen Insight make it to the track?

[vineyridge]

Taino, you *have* to do that breeding. You'd have Ribot Tail Male and his full sister tail female. How much better can you get?

[Taino]

Keen Insight never made it to the track because as a weanling she suffered a fungal ulcer in her left eye, thus no vision on the rail. I purchased her dam Cherylina with some partners, and we have a nice 2yo by Rock and Roll in training at Bowie, but they wanted to sell the dam. But I "needed" a filly from that family, so I contacted the previous owner and luckily she still had the River Keen filly. She wasn't in the breeding business anymore, and actually had given the filly away, but she was glad someone wanted her for breeding, so she begged the new owner to gave her back to sell to me. I registered her as Keen Insight, and bred her to my stud Precious Marque (doubling up on Ribot's dam thru Graustark, plus doubling on Never Bend), but Chery's new owner (we are now good friends) and I are really thinking about sending her to Cetewayo next year. We also thought about Forbidden Apple (Pleasant Colony, Northfields), but Florida is a bit far and costly to me.

[KamiBrooks]

I agree with everybody about Keen Insight! Even if the foal ends up in the UK, it would be hard to resist trying that. With a good marketing aproach that might even be a commercial foal.

I'm interested in Cetewayo because he is very close to me and I love his race record.

Denise wrote:
[url]I'd find a mare that traced tail female to Ribot through Graustark[/url]

My mare is Rubikisses ( http://www.pedigreequery.com/rubikisses ) who has Graustark as second dam sire. I'm kind of 50/50 on the His Majesty/Graustark linebreeding. Not sure if its just too much distance or the 'plodder' theory because of the two male returns, but it seems to be either a boom or bust pattern. I'm looking at Service Stripe for Rubikisses for this year because he's a proven quantity and she needs a proven sire this time around. Rubiano mares have done well with Deputy Minister sons and Service Stripe in particular gives me sex balanced line breeding to Wild Risk which has a high percentage of success.

But really would like to try Rubikisses with Cetewayo once he's had some foals race (and if I can find a turf friendly trainer). Just trying to balance playing around with my own theories and risk ruining what might be a good broodmare (this will be her second foal). Who knows, I've heard rummors of artificial track at Mountaineer, so maybe the turf lines will be more acceptable in the future.

I was hoping to figure out some His Majesty affinity type blood lines or nicking patterns in the mean time. I looked at the mixed marriage angle and am not sure if that only appears successful right now because she was tail female on the sires where it did work. W/Cetewayo, mixed marriage is burried in that grey middle area where it might not be as strong.

But thanks for the inputs. Any others ideas would certainly be welcome. I want to go see if the farm has any of his current foals to look at and to look at him here in the next month or so.

Kami

[Denise]

Kami,
I think it really depends on whether you're breeding to sell (hence your concern about "ruining" a mare, or breeding to race. Cetewayo will likely have zilch commercial value with early crops, because his babies just won't sell well, irrespective of whether they look great, are from a wonderful racemare like Rubi (what's her immediate family like? All runners?) and because he's likely to not get a big book, even though he was a hard-knocking, durable, wonderful runner himself. And, there's the dreaded TURF knock, though with Poly on the horizon everywhere, and it's good to hear that it may come to Mountaineer, that may change for those unloved, solid turf sires.
When I looked at Rubi's pedigree, something else struck me. You could very easily send her to a Fappiano-line stallion to achieve that famous "Tartan" farm nick of Fappiano/In Reality. That has produced some serious runners!
(I'm biased, though; we have two very nice Unbridled Jets, and one on the way. Ours is not that particular nick, but another good one: Fappiano/Caro.)
Our Cozzene mare goes with pretty much everybody, just like Cetewayo.

[KamiBrooks]

I'm breeding to race, but also keeping in mind that (a) I want to make money somewhere and (b) I might not always have her

Here's catalog page from 2 years ago, it probably hasn't changed:

1st dam
HAPPY LOVER, by *Le Fabuleux. Placed at 3 and 4, $5,891. Dam of 4 foals, 2 to race, 1 winner--
Rubikisses (f. by Rubiano). See below.

2nd dam
CAPTURED MOMENT, by Graustark. Winner at 3, $4,100. Half-sister to TRUE KNIGHT, West On Broad, Kleptomaniac
Dam of 3 winners--
- MATTHEW'S MOMENT (g. by Little Current). 16 wins, 2 to 8, $97,699, Wadsworth Memorial H.-ntr, 1 1/8 miles in 1:50.40 (FL, $13,620), 3rd Farmington Breeders' Cup H. (FL, $4,734), Wadsworth Memorial H. (FL, $2,740).
- Gullible Girl (f. by Roberto). Winner at 3, $13,200.
- Rift of Dawn (c. by Honest Pleasure). Winner at 4. Sire.
- Happy Lover (f. by *Le Fabuleux). See above.

3rd dam
Stealaway, by Olympia. 4 wins at 2 and 3, $21,415, 3rd Colleen S. Dam of 10 winners--
- TRUE KNIGHT (c. by Chateaugay). 14 wins, 2 to 5, $739,673, Suburban H.-G1, Amory L. Haskell H.-G1, John B Campbell H.-G2, Seminole H.-G2, Queens County H.-G2, Trenton H.-G3, Chesapeake S.-ntr, 1 1/8 miles in 1:49.40, Jerome H., etc. Sire.
- West On Broad (c. by Banquet Circuit). 11 wins, 2 to 5, $265,656, 3rd San Pasqual H.-G2, Peter Pan S.-G3, Auld Lang Syne H., Alsab S.
- Kleptomaniac (f. by Fleet Nasrullah). 5 wins at 3 and 4, $44,654, 3rd Rockette S. Dam of--
---- SUSPICIOUS (f. by Damascus). 5 wins, 2 to 4, $84,646, Light Hearted S., 2nd Smart Angle S., 3rd Kiss Me Kate S., Lady Pitt H., Revidere S. Dam of--
------ ASPIRING (f. by Academy Award). 4 wins at 3 and 4, $177,704, Navajo Princess S. (MED, $24,000), 2nd Beaugay H. [G3].
---- Curious (f. by Rare Performer). Winner at 3, $10,756. Dam of--
------ El Curioso (g. by El Gran Senor). 4 wins, 2 to 7, 2004 in England and NA, $224,186 (USA), 2nd Governor's Cup H. (FPX, $8,500).
---- Anything in Sight (f. by Round Table). Placed at 2, $8,375. Dam of--
------ RIGAMAJIG (f. by Majestic Light). 7 wins, 3 to 5, $373,836, Long Island H. [G2], La Prevoyante Invitational H. [G2], The Very One H. [L]-ncr, 1 3/8 miles in 2:15.10 (GP, $30,000), 2nd Sheepshead Bay H. [G3], Seneca H. [G3], etc. Producer.
------ Flasher (g. by Majestic Light). 8 wins, 3 to 7, $243,226, 2nd Riggs H. [L] (PIM, $15,000).
------ Say Anything (f. by Sovereign Dancer). Placed at 3. Dam of--
-------- SAID ENOUGH (g. by Norquestor). 15 wins, 2 to 9, 2004, $257,902, New Jersey Futurity-R (MED, $36,312), 3rd Bob Jackson Memorial S. (DEL, $4,664).
---- Nerves of Steal (f. by Round Table). Unplaced. Dam of--
------ PUBLIC ACCOUNT (c. by Private Account). 12 wins, 3 to 5, $287,699, Miami Budweiser Breeders' Cup H. [G3], Tropical Park H. [L] (CRC, $49,860), Marathon H. [L] (CRC, $33,030), 3rd Memorial Day H. [L] (CRC, $6,083), Coral Springs H. [L] (CRC, $6,017).
------ Olajuwon (c. by Believe It). 11 wins, 2 to 7, $203,925, 2nd Space Needle H. (LGA, $5,000), 3rd Independence Day H. (LGA, $4,500).
------ Excellent Spirit (f. by Damascus). Placed at 3, $10,600. Dam of--
-------- SPIRITUAL STAR (f. by Soviet Star). 4 wins at 2 and 3, $146,000, Burlingame S. [L] (BM, $31,800), Cypress West Farm S. (BM, $16,875), Sorority S.-R (GG, $25,200), 2nd Bay Meadows Lassie S. [L] (BM, $20,000), 3rd Sacramento H.-R (GG, $7,500), etc.
------ Spunk (f. by In Reality). Unraced. Dam of--
-------- Lynch Station (c. by Quiet American). Winner at 3 and 4, $37,464, 3rd John D. Marsh S.-R (CNL, $3,300).
------ Bossy Boots (f. by Academy Award). Unplaced in 2 starts. Dam of--
-------- DRESSED FOR ACTION (f. by Bold n' Flashy). 4 wins, 2 to 4, 2004, $352,357, Adena Springs Matchmaker S. [L] (FE, $48,000(CAN)), Ontario Damsel S.-R (WO, $99,900(CAN)), 2nd Bold Ruckus S.-R (WO, $27,800(CAN)), Nandi S.-R (WO, $25,825(CAN)), 3rd Victorian Queen S.-R (WO, $14,245(CAN)), etc.
-------- BOSSKIRI (f. by Kiridashi). 2 wins in 2 starts at 2, 2004, $114,330, Nandi S.-R (WO, $79,050(CAN)).
---- Battlemania (f. by Ack Ack). Unplaced. Dam of--
------- Battlin Bird (f. by Proud Birdie). 12 wins, 2 to 5, $159,069, 2nd Clasico Roberto Clemente, Clasico Accion de Gracias, 3rd Clasico Prensa Hipica, Clasico Wiso G., Clasico Dia de la Mujer.
- Darby Dame (f. by His Majesty). Winner at 3, $19,460. Dam of--
---- PROUD N' APPEAL (f. by Proud Appeal). 6 wins in 12 starts at 3 and 4, $220,606, Ticonderoga H. [LR] (AQU, $53,910), Broadway H.-R (AQU, $51,930), 2nd Schenectady H. [LR] (AQU, $19,206). Dam of--
------ SMART COUPONS (g. by Gate Dancer). 10 wins, 3 to 7, $529,912, Excelsior Breeders' Cup H. [G3], Kings Point H.-R (AQU, $50,310), Kings Point H.-R (AQU, $33,300), Kings Point H.-R (AQU, $33,090), 3rd Empire Classic H.-R (BEL, $27,500), etc.
------ THERESA THE TEACHA (f. by Cure the Blues). 5 wins, 3 to 5, $217,378, Affectionately H. [G3], Montauk H.-R (AQU, $33,780), 2nd Jack Betta Be Rite S.-R (FL, $6,000).
---- Rox's Ridge (f. by Cox's Ridge). Winner at 3 and 4, $32,108. Dam of--
------ Knightimenina (f. by Ascot Knight). 11 wins, 3 to 7, $125,750. Dam of--
-------- Executive Time (f. by Bold Executive). Winner at 2 and 3, 2004, $53,797, 2nd Filly Sale S.-R (NP, $10,000(CAN)), 3rd Sturgeon River S.-R (NP, $5,000(CAN)).
- Captured Moment (f. by Graustark). See above.
- Loyal Knight (c. by His Majesty). 24 wins, 3 to 8, $148,982.
- Hail Columbus (c. by Roberto). Winner at 3, $50,070.
- Far Off (c. by Fleet Nasrullah). 17 wins, 3 to 10.
- Captain Stealaway (c. by Our Captain Willie). 3 wins at 3 and 4, $13,995.
- Shatin (g. by Graustark). 3 wins at 3 and 8, $7,609.
- Tenacious Leader (c. by Roberto). Placed at 3, $18,840.



RACE RECORD for Rubikisses: At 2, unplaced in 1 start; at 3, three wins, 5 times 2nd; at 4, two wins, once 2nd; at 5, one win, twice 2nd, once 3rd; at 6, 2004, four wins, 3 times 2nd, once 3rd. Totals: 10 wins, 11 times 2nd, twice 3rd. Earned $204,113.

[KamiBrooks]

Rubiano is already based on the Fappiano / In Reality pattern.

Rubikisses was probably based on the Unbridled / Cahill Road (Fappiano / Le Fabuleux/In Reality) pattern.


Later
Kami