WANTED: opinions on mare's value

[amanda1]

We have a mare at our farm that I am interested in purchasing and I would like opinions on her value.

Cee Knows Evil (1997 Dynaformer x Cee Knows by Known Fact)

Ran fourth (damn) in a stakes shortly before a career ending nerve injury in her hind end. Extremely well built large mare, very sound. We have had her at our farm for 6 years and have raised her foals.

Foal history:
2005 colt by Langfuhr, sold at '06 Keeneland Sept Yearling sale for $20,000. Currently in training at Woodbine. Unraced yet but his workout times are LEGIT!!!! I would like to buy her before he does something to boost her value!

2006 filly by Quiet American. She is stunning, very correct, balanced, super athletic, one of the nicest fillies I've seen.

Aborted 2007 filly by Limehouse

Booked and assumed in foal this year to North Light.

Any opinions or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[habitat]

based on the stud fees and sires selected I would say the owners see more value in this mare than I do.

[amanda1]

Habitat,
Thanks for the opinion. FYI...her breeding to North Light was arranged as a foal sharing with Adena Springs, so I believe the owners only paid half the $40K stud fee.

Any thoughts on purchase price or a stud fee range that's appropriate for her??

[habitat]

I am not an appraiser so was hoping you would get some other input. When I watch the sales results I would have thought that mare could be had for 5K and she sells for 60+ and then I see another mare by a leading bms and say dont bother, but then it sells for practically nothing.

Looking at the sales results from November and January there is quite a drop in Dynaformer mares. When I looked at November, I thought yep, you should keep your mouth shut. When I looked at January I was thinking that's about where I would put this mare...somwhere between 7-10K based on conformation and other such things.

There are two factors that make me think this mare could bring more, Hattab Gal and the quality of sires she has been put with already. You've already indicated that the up and comer times are ligit. So the owners should be somewhat educated in this regard also. If they look at sales results they could be encouraged by some much larger figures.

As far as what price sires that is a personal choice. If I owned this mare I would want to put her to Gilded Time sometime before her career was over. He is standing for 10K.

If I were the owner of this mare and had owned her this long I would not be in a hurry to sell her because the upside could be big where if this first foal isnt a runner I wouldn't stand to lose that much, seems any Dynaformer is bringing 5K.

Very interested to see where someone with real appraising skills would value this mare.

Good Luck.

[alan peterson]

Her siblings don't knock my socks off but her female family is fantastic and who can knock the sire?

But the market is soft and I would insist on the lowest price possible.

[madelyn]

I agree with an earlier post, this mare has been sent to sires outside her value range. However, if breeding to race, sometimes the mating itself is of higher consideration.

This mare is 10, and her immediate female family isn't throwing anything. The 2nd dam is fabulous but that falls off the page for this mare's offspring. Having yesterday passed up a half sister to the dam of Teuflesberg for $5K, I would put this mare's value at somewhere between $7500-$10,000.

The market valued the mare for you, when her Langfuhr ($25K stud fee) sold at the September yearling sale for $20K, resulting in a loss of $15-20K for the breeder, using industry standard costing.

[hpkingjr]

As an aside, if she is in foal on a foal share, most foal share contracts convert to the published stud fee if the mare is sold. Better check with A Springs and get their blessings before you pull the trigger and find yourself in the middle of a legal dispute. More than likely they will be fine with the sale but you better check it out.

[madelyn]

Habitat,
...her breeding to North Light was arranged as a foal sharing with Adena Springs...

Whoops, good pickup hpkingjr.

Actually a foal share usually means that the foal is owned jointly by the partners on a ratio disclosed in the contract (60/40, 50/50, etc.) If you buy the mare, you are very likely NOT also buying the foal. Usually in a foal share the stallion owner receives no compensation until the foal is sold. And the contract stipulates the stallion and mare owner as joint tenants in common in ownership. This deal sounds like it has an awful lot of hair on it when there are some really great mares out there with no legal tentacles attached.

[Sysonby]

Langfuhr is one of those sires that alot buyers are ice cold on though. At the same sale where the Cee Knows Evil sold for $20,000, another Langfuhr out of Party Chatter also sold for $20,000. Party Chatter then sold for $80,000 at the November sale.

Amanda, since you know that mare and have first hand knowledge of the foals, you have a much better basis to evaluate her than any of us. Why are you interested in her? What was the Langfuhr like and why do you think he didn't sell well? What do you want to spend on her? What do they want for her? Any preconceptions of value doesn't matter if they don't agree and won't sell her for what you want to pay

[habitat]

when looking at North Light sales for covering sire these numbers are not encouraging either. The mare's first foal sells for less than fee and her in-foal sire is not covering his fee a large percent of the time.

[amanda1]

I'm interested in her now for two reasons. Number one being that the owners are looking to get out of racing all together and she is their last mare. Number two is that I am hoping I could sneak in under the radar and purchase her fairly inexpensively and then have her first runner or two do something notable on the track. I would not be purchasing the 2008 North Light foal.

Her Langfuhr colt (the 2 y/o at Woodbine, Bag Of Hammers) was a precocious yearling. He ran circles around the Hold That Tiger he was pastured with. He just had "that look". Conformationally she throws very correct balanced foals. Her Quiet American yearling filly is phenomenal and has a great mind.

I am more interested in breeding to race than selling commercially. I'd love to get a quality runner out of her. Based on her QA filly, I would send her back to him again in a heartbeat and hope for another filly as he is making great strides as a broodmare sire.

[jellac]

amanda - If you're goal is to breed this mare to get a race baby and you're excited about her QA yearling filly can I ask why you wouldn't just make the owners (who are getting out of racing altogether) an offer for the QA filly already on the ground?

If she's that great looking, has a half-bro you're fairly sure is about to make some noise on the track, you know her owners are wanting to get out of the biz altogether and you really really like that filly enough to send her dam back to QA...I'd say you'd be way ahead of the game by seeing if you could buy the QA filly for a reasonable figure.

You'd be ahead/have saved money in terms of 2years time saved, monies to be spent on stud fees, transport, prepping the mare, vet bills, board, etc. to end up - that is possibally end up - with a QA foal in two more years time......and by then the current QA filly may have turned out to be a gorgeous filly who's a bust on the track so that now you're full sib is not worth much....(just my thoughts.....seems like the long way around to getting a horse to race out of this particular mare.)

[amanda1]

jellac,

I would LOVE to purchase the filly, but unfortunately she has already been sold privately (they had previously planned on selling her at Keeneland Sept Yearling sale). The new owners are keeping her at our farm until she is ready to break this fall, so I get to bask in envy until then!

Thanks for the thoughts.....

[alan peterson]

Amanda,

I think from the posts it´s pretty clear that we weren´t talking about Something Royal here. There were some things to like but lots of question marks as well. If you keep $7,500.00 cash handy you could do a lot better.