Booking Stallions

[LSB]

I'd be curious to hear what everyone else's experiences have been this year trying to get their mares booked to their stallions of choice.

I only have a couple of mares I want to breed and I've been going crazy trying to get them where I want them. It seems awfully early for so many books to be already closed, and I can think of several that have been closed for a month or even two. Everybody seems to be scrambling. I know books aren't decreasing in size--are there that many more mares being bred?

And heaven forbid you want to go to a new stallion! I think their seasons were all spoken for before they even left the track. In the last couple of weeks, I and friends of mine have been turned down for Speightstown, Dixie Union, Strong Hope, and Yes It's True. Thank goodness I submitted to Vindication in September.

So how is everyone else doing? Am I just experiencing a run of bad luck or should I begin to take this personally?

[KAL]

Well... I got turned away to Arch. His book is full. However, I got into all the others I wanted, albeit they are not nearly as popular as those you mentioned. By the way... just sent you a PM...

I think we are seeing the by-product of the state-bred program. Many feel they can now justify sending mares to Kentucky stallions in order to get a slightly better runner. Of course, many of these mares will not be back to Kentucky next year, per the rules of their statebred program.

We also are seeing the "rookie" craze. People have gone completely nuts over theses "new" stallions. Some of this can be chalked up to Elusive Quality and his runaway success, some is due to the hype and promotion, and some is due to the perception (which may turn into a misconception) that you have a much, much better shot at making money with a 1st year stallion.

On the other hand, the managers of the more experienced stallions don't quite seem to know what is happening. I have heard repeatedly that "farm a" who stands moderately successful "stallion x" (who is in his 6th year) is unwilling to reduce fee, offer different terms. or negotiate in any way. Yet, "farm a" is also concerned because this moderately successful stallion probably will not have a full book. Well... you cannot have it both ways.

The farms are using the encouraging data from the yearling sales to justify fee hikes, however I am not certain the encouraging data was as widespread as what the industry would have you believe. I have looked at the "true" sales averages for many mid-level stallions, and repeatedly found their results were skewed by a couple individuals. The rest of the market wasn't so strog. This could be dangerous... however, if someone is willing to own the mare, pay for her care, and pay to have her bred... well, then they should be able to pay for poor business decisions.

[austique]

I got turned away on Chapel Royal whose book was closed, but got in everywhere else I tried. I didn't try any other first year sires aside from Chapel Royal.

[LSB]

The farms are using the encouraging data from the yearling sales to justify fee hikes, however I am not certain the encouraging data was as widespread as what the industry would have you believe. I have looked at the "true" sales averages for many mid-level stallions, and repeatedly found their results were skewed by a couple individuals. The rest of the market wasn't so strog.

I agree with you 100% about that. The top of the market was flying and I think the bottom may have gotten a small hike, but vast areas in the middle were very soft. It was certainly apparent to the breeders--even if the stallion owners are trying to turn a blind eye to the problem.

[henthorn]

LSB, I got all four of mine in to stallions I wanted , three at better terms than those published . I've sent you a PM . Arch was the only one that they wouldn't budge on terms , but Claiborne already has a LF S&N contract . By September they were essentially only accepting stakes-winners or stakes-producers. Saarland and Millennium Wind in Kentucky, and Authenticate in Texas. Now we are looking at Wheelaway in New York for the final mare .

[Reviewer]

I also tried to send our unraced Gone west mare to Congaree about a month ago without success. We ended up selecting an "established" stallion at the same price in Honour and Glory.

[Ramona]

Man, you people are talking some high profile stallions here and must have some high-falootin' mares to go with them. Right?

[KAL]

Ramona, perception is in the eye of the beholder.

If you notice, only LSB listed stallions whose fee is over $15,000... and, yes, she does have some very, very nice mares, who justify such fees. At present, her mares will have foals in that nice lower 6 figure range. However, to LSB, while she loves her mares, she would like to have some of those mares who can produce 7 figure foals. (And, honestly, with a little luck and time, her's may "grow" into that type mare.)

Personally, I have, what I consider, low-end mares with potential. I would absolutely love to have LSB's girls, but my business plan was slightly different. We hope to have foals in the $30,000 to $50,000 range, yet know we will have some lower until we get a couple "established"... and who knows, we may have one or two go higher, we can always "hope".

On the other hand, I have a friend in Arkansas who thinks my mares are fantastic. He looks at mine like I look at LSB's, and like she probably looks at ClassicStar's.

If you wish to check out the pedigree's of a couple of my mares... I am selling two in Keeneland January... well, trying to sell two anyway... they are hips 775 and 859. If they don't get sold, they too will probably be sent to $10,000 stallions... (Although, honestly, I haven't given them much thought... they are at Keeneland to be sold... and I imagine they will be.) Besides, I have 7 others (and by February, I may end up with an 8th). It was difficult enough to make decisions for those.

[LSB]

Ramona, wait until Green Hills Farm checks in (by the way, I wonder where she's been lately?) She has a mare currently in foal to A.P.Indy.

[henthorn]

Ramona, I look at it this way. My mares are my factories, subject to their own idiosyncracies, race records, and pedigrees. It's hard enough to produce a good runner or a top-seller, so I might as well start with as good mares as I can afford, and use the best stallions I can afford. I'd rather have four nice mares producing well-bred foals than twenty poor ones producing foals. The vet bills, transportation, and training cost the same for each of them, unless you skimp. The main difference is the purchase price and insurance.

I like to think big and dream big, and feel I have a shot at quality.

[Joe]

So far, I've been fine and am in a position to pick now. I'm doing $15,000-$7.500 and am good everywhere I've asked.

KAL, you got to get up to PA and breed. There are good things coming here.

[henthorn]

KAL, I don't call your girls listed at Keeneland "lower end mares", although I've never tried to sell any mares yet. Mine aren't nearly that nice. Their quality is not yet realized, but potentially through various channels: Shake On It is a daughter of Affirmed out of a tough regional stakes winner. Spanish Guitar was a tough multiple minor stakes-winner with a stakes-winning and producing dam. Hop to It was a tough competitor out of a stakes-winning mare that had produced a multiple G3 winner. Vivid Dreams is a granddaughter of the tough mare Viva Sec, dam of multiple producing young daughters who have been bred to quality studs, and who is second dam of Vicar. Reigning Glory is by Southern Halo, a good broodmare sire, and her tail female family produced Relaunch and Glitterman, and Golden Act.

So mine were all tried by me as racing prospects first before becoming broodmares, with hopes of their catalog pages improving through race records and through productive dams and sisters. So far it's paid off, with two who became good racehorses, one each whose dam and aunt have since produced additional stakes winners, and many recent winners among their dams' and second dams' later foals. My hope is that by the time my mares' foals are ready to sell, the catalog pages will have further improved.

In the meantime I have two yearling fillies and some weanlings in the pipeline, and four foals on the way. I hope to have some fun racing my Texas-bred Western Trader/Vivid Dreams filly next year and my Iowa-bred Alphabet Soup/Shake On It filly as a three year old the following year.

[KAL]

Joe, it has been discussed, however our first move would be to send a couple mares to Louisiana, for the same reasons we would consider PA. Some of the reasons for LA over PA is that the breeders program and funds are already established, it is much closer to our home, I lived in LA for a while and like it there (I must admit, I will take New Orleans over Pittsburgh any day), it is much warmer than PA, and the racing is much stronger and more accessible. However, you can believe that we will be watching PA carefully.

Right now, it is difficult for us to move. We have a pretty sweet deal. We send our mares to a fantastic facility in KY to foal and be re-bred, then we bring them back to our leased farm here in Missouri. We will be paying boarding fees for only about 4 months, on average. The current relationship, which is definitely not our first, has been chosen because it puts us a step closer to the "big circuit". I am more comfortable now than I have ever been.

Additionally, we are having a blast working with our weanlings. Wife is incredible when it comes to nutrition and program. She gets them ready and we send them to KY for the last 45 days for final prep, then to the sales. The hands on work has been great for my mental and physical health (but not my allegies... I am allergic to hay and horses...).

Everything is working so well I would hate to change. However, I cannot ignore the breeders awards being offered in other places. Kentucky, at present, doesn't really care about me or really about the production of horses who can race. They are solely concerned with the commercial market and stallion fees generated. They prove this through the total lack of any support for breeders.

As we further develop, I imagine we will, at some point expand our operation and send mares to Louisiana and, perhaps PA. Unfortunately, I don't think that will be for another couple years. Part of the reason for the delay is that I won't send my critters someplace until I feel we have the "right" people on the ground there and the right support system in place. Unfortunately, I simply don't have time to travel to either LA or PA and develop those relationships.

[KAL]

Back to original topic... perhaps we can start listing horses who are supposedly "full"

Congaree
Arch
Chapel Royal (although I find that hard to believe...)
Speightstown
Strong Hope
Dixie Union
Yes Its True
Jump Start


Who else?

[Joe]

KAL, this is a really telling sentiment:

Kentucky, at present, doesn't really care about me or really about the production of horses who can race. They are solely concerned with the commercial market and stallion fees generated. They prove this through the total lack of any support for breeders.

Those were your words and I can't agree more. Why not go to a state that wants you ? LA or PA is fine, NY is fine, we, as breeders can shop now. KY is letting it all slip by with the drugs and the sales, etc. Instead of leading the industry, they are trying to preserve the old status-quo.

What goes around, comes around. The MRLS showed people they don't need Kentucky. They have some problems brewing.

IMHO.