Rubiano as a broodie sire

[Jessi P]

Thoughts?

[Mahubah]

He may do fairly well given his own solid pedigree and the generally respectable mates he was given. I'd examine the distaff side of the pedigree of any daughter of his I was thinking of buying and see if she came from a good solid family; if so, she might be a buy.

[chicago78]

I like him, too. He is closely related to Relaunch, who's mares have done well with a ton of different sires. Another sire from this family that may get some quality broodmares is Glitterman. And a horse currently running from the family that I'm betting will be a nice sire is Tapit.

As for Rubiano, it would be interesting to breed one of his mares to a sire decending from Relaunch, to inbreed to the mare Foggy Note. Tiznow and Officer are two horses that match up real well with a Rubiano mare.

[Mahubah]

I did a piece for Pedigree Post a couple of years back looking at Officer and Tiznow as prospective sires and making some guesses as to what might match up well with them. Guess I'll have an idea in a couple of years as to whether I'm a genius or a goat

[chiggins6]

Mahubah, where are those get at the moment? Have you been following them? Do you know where any of them are? Have they come up in the sales, yet, are they in training? I know this sounds like a challenge, its not, I am just interested. Long-term results of thoughtful thinking really interest me, in this "game". I am following how people think about the animals and breeding, and how that plays out, and particularly like your thoughtful analysis. Can you say anything about any of these foals, and what they are doing yet? Or is it too soon?

Thanks,

Cheryl

[Mahubah]

I haven't really been following Rubiano's daughters so far. I'm simply looking at a general principle: if a high-class racehorse has been bred to some good mares, some of the daughters of those good mares are pretty likely to pan out as broodies even if "Mr. High Class" never makes more than a useful sire of winners. That's why horses like Alysheba sometimes get a better reputation as broodmare sires than they had as sires of winners.

The trick is to look for daughters of "Mr. High Class" sired while he was getting good mares -- you usually don't want daughters from the first few crops of a sire who had to work his way up the ladder because they won't have the families behind them, and you don't want daughters from the later crops of a sire who fell from grace after his limitations as a sire of winners were discovered, because at that point he quits getting much in the way of really good mares.

[chiggins6]

Oh. I see. Hence the wait for a couple of years, having, ehr, waited a couple of years. Interesting. You can look at a horse's get as "winners" and as "producers of winners" and tablulate a value from each set.

And, a value for the sire, based upon the value of each set.

[chiggins6]

Please don't tell me I'm finding a use for my high school algebra in the real world.

[Mahubah]

If I'm understanding your post correctly, the stats boys already do that. BRIS calculates an SI for every starter, indexing each horse's average earnings per start against the average earnings per start for every horse foaled that year in North America. The SSI is a sire's average SI for all his starters with three or more starts; the BMSI is a sire's average for all his starters as a broodmare sire with three or more starts.

[llbean]

The Fappiano/Nijinsky cross which produced Rubiano is a darn nice nick in South America.

[louis finochio]

All upper echelon BMS have the same patterns, the tail-grand dam is a superor producer, or a blue hen. In each case the tail-grand-dam has been a prolific proudcer of SW. Rubiano's 2nd dam or tail-grand dam dosent qualify, but the 3rd. dam Foggy Note does. Time will tell where the pendelum will swing.

[Mahubah]

Some top broodmare sires certainly fit this pattern, but others don't. Four-time leading broodmare sire Bull Lea's granddam was *Colonial, not a great producer although she was also the granddam of Nellie Morse. Man o' War, 22 times among the top 10 American broodmare sires, had as his second dam *Merry Token, also not a great producer although she did throw the SW Sand Mole. Stephanie, second dam of Count Fleet, produced one stakes winner from seven foals. Cosquilla, the dam of *Princequillo, was about the best produce of her dam Quick Thought, and *Sir Gallahad III and *Bull Dog were out of the great blue hen Plucky Liege, whose dam Concertina was not an exceptional broodie though she produced two important daughters in Plucky Liege and Garron Lass. I'd agree that "mare power" in the pedigree is important in assessing a potential sire or broodmare sire, but I can't pin it down to the maternal granddam.

[louis finochio]

I researched the top 25 BMS by using the AEI checking the tail-grand dam for a prolific producer's of SW. By my figures the tail-grand dam in the top 25 BMS runs around 70 percent. Nothing is 100 percent in the breeding shed as mother nature is always throwing us a curve. But 70 percent is a postive figure, and another tool to help breeder's make a decision.

[llbean]

Louis; What''s your definition of a "prolific producer of stakes winners"?

-llbean

[louis finochio]

A mare that is a prolific producer of SW has produced 3 or more SW. Prolific means many and the more the merrier.