Rogulet,
Thank you for that post. As someone who AI's my one TB mare every year for a Dutch warmblood foal, I can tell you that AI just isn't easy as everyone makes out. You think great, mare at home, pop in the straw, all is well. Not so. Sent her off to the stud farm this year so she could be covered, by AI, but at the farm because I was sick of all the headaches involved with scheduling deliveries, vet, oh and semen being stripped off me at the airport. Plus some horses just plain don't do well when frozen or chilled, stallions that is. Actually breeding in the warmblood market is quite tricky as some stallion owners are happy to send you crap semen. Most of the time your paying up front and only get the option of using another stallion of theirs as well as the extra shipping costs and lost time in breeding.
As far as hating the biggies with the big books. Well they aren't actually getting paid for big books, they get paid for live foals. So if they want their money, by goodness they will do all it takes to have your mare in foal. I use Coolmore over here and have yet to have a mare that isn't in foal on one attempt. They do the job quite well. All I know is my mares come home pregnant and healthy and that's what I'm after. So if they use AI, semen extender, and the rest I don't care. Happy healthy worth something foals is what I need. Not all the crap of wondering this and wondering that.
AI is not going to kill the TB market. I would probably still send my mares off to stud because of the reasons stated above. But then again if I wanted to use an English stallion on a mare with a foal at foot, I'd probably not have a problem. It really isn't as easy as everyone makes out though.
Terri
Artificial insemination: How prevalent is it?
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
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CA Michael
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Did anyone else read the following story on Coolmore's Australian shuttle stallions' delay in starting the breeding season?
http://breeding.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=40395
Here's the part that caught my eye:
"Some of these stallions attract more than $100,000 per service and given they can service up to five mares a day, it will be a heavy financial loss for their studs."
Whew! I have NEVER known ANY stallion to be physically able to serve five mares a day, much less for an entire breeding season, and certainly not year round (as most Coolmore stallions do).
If this is not an admission of using artificial means of conception then I don't know what is.
http://breeding.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=40395
Here's the part that caught my eye:
"Some of these stallions attract more than $100,000 per service and given they can service up to five mares a day, it will be a heavy financial loss for their studs."
Whew! I have NEVER known ANY stallion to be physically able to serve five mares a day, much less for an entire breeding season, and certainly not year round (as most Coolmore stallions do).
If this is not an admission of using artificial means of conception then I don't know what is.
Convictions without Courage are worthless
Michael, if you had seen the breeding schedule at Ashford/Coolmore you might understand how they get 5 breedings. They literally will breed at any time... 1 a.m. , 3 a.m. etc. Not sure it is good for the stallion, but is certainly good money for any shipper who is willing to stay up late to make the haul.
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CA Michael
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KAL, I don't know how any stallion could be bred 5x daily for about 10 months of the year and maintain any level of fertility and/or libido. And we're not talking about an isolated horse, but an entire cavalry unit.
I also know from personal experience that Coolmore will ask for mares to "spend a night or two" at their place during breeding season. Lots of time to collect and inseminate.
I also know from personal experience that Coolmore will ask for mares to "spend a night or two" at their place during breeding season. Lots of time to collect and inseminate.
Convictions without Courage are worthless
I for one am not a huge fan of the 200 foal crops. But, modern science as good as it is, the vets make sure the mare will be ovulating at the time of the breeding. It is a rarity for a mare to go back to a stallion in a breeding season now. It used to be the mare might go to the breeding shed 2 -3 times in a season. But now, they know for sure and only need to send them once.
If a mare doesn't catch they question you about her cleanliness, if she was checked by a vet etc. It's enough to drive you crazy, you feel like you're in a police precient and are being interrogated by the NYPD.
I think the books should be brought back down to maybe 80 mares, and they should really check to see if it's a good match.
winds
If a mare doesn't catch they question you about her cleanliness, if she was checked by a vet etc. It's enough to drive you crazy, you feel like you're in a police precient and are being interrogated by the NYPD.
I think the books should be brought back down to maybe 80 mares, and they should really check to see if it's a good match.
winds
Michael... I agree... and I agree with your shaded insinuation.
Even funnier are those farms which, after several unsuccessful attempts, will ask you to leave your mare for them to "try" later. You leave and a few hours later you get a call that your mare has been successfully bred. I know of a case (poster to this board) that got a call within 2 hours. We had one get bred within 3.
Now, if you are a van driver well known within the industry, chances are you don't have to leave... and amazingly, those van drivers are among the ones who do the "night" hauls. How much do you think they know and are not telling? Which also speaks volumes to how widespread some practices really probably are.
I also have heard of some of the various chemical assistance given these stallions... wow... cannot be good for them. Makes a guy appreciate some of the "low" book farms who seem much more upfront about everything. Unfortunately, much like the correlation between commercial success and racing success is minute... much is the correlation between a stallions commercial production and racing production.
Bottom line... many of the woes we are discussing here are directly related to the sales... as are many of the surgeries, drugs, and ethical problems. The sales numbers are what drive stallion fees and books... and of course it is the perverse way the sales numbers are skewed and marketed which have the most effect. The big farms, the big sales companies, the big consignors, and the big agencies are so tightly wound that effective change will never happen. They own the ball, they have the ball, and they darn sure don't wish to share the ball or its control. So, what does one with common sense do... either play ball with them... or breed-to-race.
Even funnier are those farms which, after several unsuccessful attempts, will ask you to leave your mare for them to "try" later. You leave and a few hours later you get a call that your mare has been successfully bred. I know of a case (poster to this board) that got a call within 2 hours. We had one get bred within 3.
Now, if you are a van driver well known within the industry, chances are you don't have to leave... and amazingly, those van drivers are among the ones who do the "night" hauls. How much do you think they know and are not telling? Which also speaks volumes to how widespread some practices really probably are.
I also have heard of some of the various chemical assistance given these stallions... wow... cannot be good for them. Makes a guy appreciate some of the "low" book farms who seem much more upfront about everything. Unfortunately, much like the correlation between commercial success and racing success is minute... much is the correlation between a stallions commercial production and racing production.
Bottom line... many of the woes we are discussing here are directly related to the sales... as are many of the surgeries, drugs, and ethical problems. The sales numbers are what drive stallion fees and books... and of course it is the perverse way the sales numbers are skewed and marketed which have the most effect. The big farms, the big sales companies, the big consignors, and the big agencies are so tightly wound that effective change will never happen. They own the ball, they have the ball, and they darn sure don't wish to share the ball or its control. So, what does one with common sense do... either play ball with them... or breed-to-race.
Oh... post was incomplete... missed the final "word"... which is, look at the board of the Jockey Club... look at where all the money is... follow both and see if you really think they wish to see any changes. Especially in the form of things like AI.
Personally, I am for it... but, I am becoming "for" anything which chisels at the base of those "good ole" boys and their strangle hold on the industry. I say, bring on AI, bring on EFFECTIVE drug testing, bring on frequent inspections, bring on radical changes to sales procedures (including full ownership and vet disclosure), bring on forcing the stallion tax (only found in KY) upon farm "deals" which currently avoid paying it, and bring on anything else which will level the playing field for the smaller farm. Oh... and bring on anything which furthers the health, welfare, and well-being of the most noble aspect of the industry... the HORSE... before, during, and after its career.
Okay... I feel better now...
Personally, I am for it... but, I am becoming "for" anything which chisels at the base of those "good ole" boys and their strangle hold on the industry. I say, bring on AI, bring on EFFECTIVE drug testing, bring on frequent inspections, bring on radical changes to sales procedures (including full ownership and vet disclosure), bring on forcing the stallion tax (only found in KY) upon farm "deals" which currently avoid paying it, and bring on anything else which will level the playing field for the smaller farm. Oh... and bring on anything which furthers the health, welfare, and well-being of the most noble aspect of the industry... the HORSE... before, during, and after its career.
Okay... I feel better now...
KAL wrote:Michael, if you had seen the breeding schedule at Ashford/Coolmore you might understand how they get 5 breedings. They literally will breed at any time... 1 a.m. , 3 a.m. etc. Not sure it is good for the stallion, but is certainly good money for any shipper who is willing to stay up late to make the haul.
Since most mares ovulate between 7PM and 7AM it would be smart for all farms to breed at night, but most don't - they fit it into their schedule instead of the mares schedule.
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CA Michael
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Guidelines for stallion breeding soundness have been established by the Society for Theriogenology (theriogenology is the branch of veterinary medicine which deals with reproduction). A stallion that passes the breeding soundness examination is expected to successfully breed 75% of a full book of mares. A full book is considered 40 mares by live cover or 120 mares by artificial insemination.
Either the SFT is way low or some breeders are pushing horses way too hard. To say that these horses are actually covering as many mares as claimed is insulting to common sense and veterinary science.
Either the SFT is way low or some breeders are pushing horses way too hard. To say that these horses are actually covering as many mares as claimed is insulting to common sense and veterinary science.