They just don't make horses like this anymore

bdw0617 · Postby **bdw0617** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:17 pm

http://www.racingpost.co.uk/horses/raci ... _id=638706

take a very close look at the DATES of the races. 6 times in August..and won 2 in a row!!!!

Rokeby Forever · Postby **Rokeby Forever** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:33 pm

There's an interesting article on the Blood-Horse site about Hopeful winner, Zev. As a two year old, he ran SEVEN times at Saratoga. That, and Cy Young's record for pitching wins, will NEVER be equaled again.

geowarrior · Postby **geowarrior** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:02 am

That's an interesting record, it's the first time I've actually seen a horse run back the next day after winning a race.

Also I was surprised to see the filly in question is by Tactical Cat - I've never heard of him being a source of unsoundness but I've also never heard mention him as a source of durability either.

bdw0617 · Postby **bdw0617** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:05 am

you mean that ..........no... that's not possible!!!!! lol

geowarrior · Postby **geowarrior** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:44 am

Well if it had been Dynaformer, Smoke Glacken etc. I'd have been less surprised, let's say.

Barbaro06 · Postby **Barbaro06** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:14 am

Yep, there are iron horses out there. I liked the article on Zev...amazing isn't it? Well, only 29 years ago we had horses running with 132+ pounds on their backs...now they can only muster 126 at best (not counting steeplechasers). Trainers duck races where their horses are given weight to test their mettle. What matters is making it to the breeding shed where the money talks.

louis finochio · Postby **louis finochio** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:55 am

no fashion inbreeding=a prolific amount of soundness and lifetime starts.

Tucumcari · Postby **Tucumcari** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:24 am

Honestly, I'd say we DON'T run that often anymore, though there are some who do and who do it well. There is a mare in California that runns and runs hard every time. Out of the money one time in her last 17 starts This guy has run the daylights out of her. Every two or three weeks on whatever surface happens to come up, sprinting, routing, whatever and she steps up every time.
The thought process is, and I agree with it, is why beat the daylights out of them. It's hard to get them to lay it down and then run 2 weeks later with a sharp half mile drill in the middle of it. And they take a beating. They need time to get themselves back in the game mentally and physically. People who have the "I must run" mentality are people we bash on these forums with some regularity. Why? They are hard on horses. The horse has an injury so we run and drop, run and drop, until they pop... hey I'm a poet.... The problem with these horses isn't surface and it isn't inbreeding, it's the fact that when a horse has a small issue they get injected with rapid acting cortisone, pre raced with a zillion different drugs that convince them they aren/'t sore, just so that they will go and run. Ya that's training :roll:

Why not back off, ice, hose, jog... or walk until the horse is ready to go on with it.
Ya, you're right running every two weeks or every week is neat! Bet that horse never sees the track except to run.

Barbaro06 · Postby **Barbaro06** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:09 am

Good point Tuc. I don't condone running them when they are sore...if they are rest 'em. I just don't get how we had horses that were tough both mentally and physically back in the day and now it seems they are so fragile.

I believe its the "quick return on investment" that drives the game nowadays (it seems like it drives everything today). It ain't cheap to keep a horse in a barn day after day so like you said so poetically, run and drop until they pop.

bdw0617 · Postby **bdw0617** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:28 pm

Tucumcari wrote:Honestly, I'd say we DON'T run that often anymore, though there are some who do and who do it well. There is a mare in California that runns and runs hard every time. Out of the money one time in her last 17 starts This guy has run the daylights out of her. Every two or three weeks on whatever surface happens to come up, sprinting, routing, whatever and she steps up every time.
The thought process is, and I agree with it, is why beat the daylights out of them. It's hard to get them to lay it down and then run 2 weeks later with a sharp half mile drill in the middle of it. And they take a beating. They need time to get themselves back in the game mentally and physically. People who have the "I must run" mentality are people we bash on these forums with some regularity. Why? They are hard on horses. The horse has an injury so we run and drop, run and drop, until they pop... hey I'm a poet.... The problem with these horses isn't surface and it isn't inbreeding, it's the fact that when a horse has a small issue they get injected with rapid acting cortisone, pre raced with a zillion different drugs that convince them they aren/'t sore, just so that they will go and run. Ya that's training Why not back off, ice, hose, jog... or walk until the horse is ready to go on with it.
Ya, you're right running every two weeks or every week is neat! Bet that horse never sees the track except to run.

i have to disagree with you tuc, to me it seems the more medicine is advancing, the more space horses need between races.

we are a long ways away from man o war winning the derby the preakness,running another allowence race, then winning the belmont

Rokeby Forever · Postby **Rokeby Forever** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:39 pm

Barbaro06 wrote: I just don't get how we had horses that were tough both mentally and physically back in the day and now it seems they are so fragile.

Take a look at a Stymie picture, who ran 131 times. Compare it to the oversized blimps with quarterhorse builds of today.

Maven · Postby **Maven** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:07 pm

The Tactical Cat filly probably got a ton of Durability from her broodmare sire, Concorde's Tune.

Concorde's Tune is my choice for best stallion per the money. He's based in Florida and gets mediocre mares, but he gets runners who are as sound as any!

They go short, long, turf, dirt... it doesn't matter. Not only is he cheap, but they sell pretty damn well because every knows they more than earn their keep.

I highly suggest looking at the number of starts they make. It will make you take notice.

diomed · Postby **diomed** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:50 pm

Rokeby Forever wrote:
Barbaro06 wrote: I just don't get how we had horses that were tough both mentally and physically back in the day and now it seems they are so fragile.

Take a look at a Stymie picture, who ran 131 times. Compare it to the oversized blimps with quarterhorse builds of today.

No kidding!!! I often wonder if the "juice" has more to do with it than Phalaris though... :wink:

Oh and remind Louis that Stymie was inbred as well....In fact, both is sire and dam were very inbred and neither raced much...Equestrian had 8 starts and Stopwatch had only 4...Yet Stymie raced 131 times at the top level and he was inbred too....LOL!!!!

Seriously, I have a high suspicion that young horses nowadays are beefed up on steriods. That's why I am excited about the recent news of the ban.
Does anyone know if that ban will include yearlings?

MidwestTrainer · Postby **MidwestTrainer** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:55 pm

I think people all do things a little different. When you have higher class horses the races just don't go that often, but the cheap horses there are always races.

All of mine except for my guy that runs allowance/stakes have started at least 10 times this year. They all started running in March and all have been given at least a 5 week break this summer. Owners just can't afford to run them once every 6 weeks for the purses. It definitely takes a different type of training. They don't breeze between races when they run back on 2 weeks, there is no need. They also get lots of mini-breaks with turnout. Not one of them even needs/gets bute to run. But like Tucumari said, if there is a little problem or soreness one day, you stop until it is gone, not keep going. Plus they ALL get the winter off, they do not train or race for 2-3 months every year.

Pretty proud of my old horse, he has made 53 starts and is 7, only 1 start as a 2 yr old and 4 as a six year old, so he averages quite a bit of starts a year, and hasn't been off the board his last 7 or 8 starts. Also have a 4 yr old filly has 31 lifetime starts and she has never taken a bad step or had heat in her legs. There are hardy horses out there, but you have to look much lower. :lol:

MidwestTrainer · Postby **MidwestTrainer** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:57 pm

diomed wrote:
Rokeby Forever wrote:
Barbaro06 wrote: I just don't get how we had horses that were tough both mentally and physically back in the day and now it seems they are so fragile.

Take a look at a Stymie picture, who ran 131 times. Compare it to the oversized blimps with quarterhorse builds of today.

No kidding!!! I often wonder if the "juice" has more to do with it than Phalaris though...
Oh and remind Louis that Stymie was inbred as well....In fact, both is sire and dam were very inbred and neither raced much...Equestrian had 8 starts and Stopwatch had only 4...Yet Stymie raced 131 times at the top level and he was inbred too....LOL!!!!

Seriously, I have a high suspicion that young horses nowadays are beefed up on steriods. That's why I am excited about the recent news of the ban.
Does anyone know if that ban will include yearlings?

I wonder that also. I know that it is not normal for two year olds(big name) to be as large as they are. Some of them yes, but everyone of them is huge, maybe it is because they are that much "better" bloodlines, but I don't think so.