Did anyone else see the irony....

[Mood Swings]

Hip # 4608 - a colt by Belong To Me out of a filly named Above Morality . This filly foaled out at three years of age. How's that for morality

Anyone get to see this colt?

[Tappiano]

I'm glad to see one of the leading stud farms supported that

[Mood Swings]

I see he just RNA'd for $13,000. I am really curious to know what he looked like.

[jacksontyger]

What exactly is wrong with her foaling at three?

[madelyn]

Perhaps breeding a filly at two is pretty much like letting your 12 year old daughter get pregnant and have the baby. Just because she CAN doesn't mean she SHOULD. You can shake out the Silvery Swan rattle, but to me breeding a two year old filly will always be somewhat wrong.

[spex4me]

It could have been worse...they could have bred her to her 3 year old half brother!! lol......

On a serious note I did not think it was even safe to do that.

[jacksontyger]

Interesting topic to me. I prefer to look at science rather than personal opinions unless they are based on real experiences. I can find no articles showing any problems associated with breeding a healthy 2 year old. I have talked to two top Kentucky reproductive veterinarians and they knew of no real problems with breeding two year olds nor any problems with the foals. They also knew of no published reports showing a problem. They did advise feeding extra calories for additional growth of the mare. I was against breeding two year olds until several clients in my practice did so on a regular basis especially in the halter industry. I have not seen any real problems. Stud farms differ on the issue and some farms have different policies for certain stallions. I am still not certain I have a strong feeling one way or the other. I just find it interesting some would label it a moral issue that some people have bred a 2 year old. Belong to Me is an interesting horse to breed a 2 year old to since he is a massive individual in my opinion. That foaling would have made me a little nervous.

[madelyn]

Interesting topic to me. I prefer to look at science rather than personal opinions unless they are based on real experiences. I can find no articles showing any problems associated with breeding a healthy 2 year old. I have talked to two top Kentucky reproductive veterinarians and they knew of no real problems with breeding two year olds nor any problems with the foals. They also knew of no published reports showing a problem. They did advise feeding extra calories for additional growth of the mare. I was against breeding two year olds until several clients in my practice did so on a regular basis especially in the halter industry.....

But the halter industry does not require any durability, nor even basic, fundamental soundness, in the horse produced.

[jacksontyger]

Is it proven breeding a two year old results in an inferior or damaged foal? Is it proven they are less durable? I can't say that I have seen that as a result nor can I find articles to support that. I am not advocating breeding a two year old to everyone. I admit I would have been concerned foaling a two year old bred to Belong to Me. But I can not tell a client I have proof that breeding a two year old is damaging to the mare or will result in a poor foal. PS Madelyn--who are you breeding your mares to this year?

[madelyn]

Most of the herd will go to Rocking Trick. But I am considering several options for Militant Maid (Sunday Break?), Express To Boston (no selection yet), Believe It Shesdue (probably Southern Image), and I have a few others that I may try to get foal shares for -- I love Silent Name. If Artie Schiller ever comes back I would like to try to send him Julie's Gem. I am toying with the idea of sending Miss Ballet to Stage Colony, since her family seems to like Pleasant Colony so well. Decisions, decisions.

There is no "proof" of an inferior foal, per se, from a two year old dam. I would be mainly concerned about the filly mother and potential calcium and mineral depletion, perhaps bringing early onset arthritis or other developmental problems in the MARE. It might not show up until the mare was 7 or something. So I don't think anyone has really studied that. It is fairly unbelievable that Silvery Swan had El Corredor at 3, was bred back and got Silver Tornado. But her '99 and '00 were nothings, so I guess she finally got a year off so she could produce Roman Ruler. What a filly. What a mare. What a dam. What an exception.

[jacksontyger]

I like Silent Name also. How do you think he will be received at the all important sales? Who is Express to Boston in foal to now? The Street Cry will help her at the track in a few years. I have Cozzy Flyer going to Awesome Again, Brightbraveandgood to El Prado, and I purchased a mare I would appreciate your opinion. Keeneland hip 132 in foal to Include. (Fantastic Year) Any suggestions on who to breed her to?

[tbrace]

Growth and maturity are the issues, not "morality", in the human sense.

Thinking about a 2yo filly like a 12 year old girl is anthopomorphism at its worst.

[madelyn]

I like Silent Name also. How do you think he will be received at the all important sales? Who is Express to Boston in foal to now? The Street Cry will help her at the track in a few years. I have Cozzy Flyer going to Awesome Again, Brightbraveandgood to El Prado, and I purchased a mare I would appreciate your opinion. Keeneland hip 132 in foal to Include. (Fantastic Year) Any suggestions on who to breed her to?

Silent Name has US credentials, so may not suffer from the myopia that doomed Minardi and his ilk in this market. I think he has been aggressively and fairly priced. I like his pedigree a lot.

Express to Boston had one shot at a breeding in May and we had a new vet who has organizational issues. His wife very reluctantly runs his office and appointments, etc., and screwed around for three days before faxing us an EHV certificate for the breeding shed. We missed the mare's ovulation. The same vet was johnny-on-the-spot to gather for uterine cultures but I had to chase around up to two weeks to get results and then a mare was dirty. It was frustrating beyond words. So Express to Boston is not in foal now. But we can at least plan for a February cover.

Fantastic Year looks like a nice mare.. you could check out Consolidator at Darley for next year.. Green Dancer seems to have done very well with Blushing Groom, and you would have Slew and Mr. Prospector with Storm Cat. Awesome Again and El Prado are BIG steps up for the other two mares.

Regarding anthromorphism, everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. I think a two year old filly who has reached sexual maturity but is just over half grown is not that different from an adolescent of any species. I would never breed a two year old filly. To each his own.

[Sysonby]

When I got a filly early in her three year old year, I kicked her out a year to grow up a little before breeding under the theory that I wanted the factory to be built before I started production. But that's really a personal preference thing--I don't see where "morality" comes into it unless the filly so immature that a pregnancy would threaten her life.

[tbrace]

I agree. However, I would prefer to wait until 3 or 4, just to let most of the growth take place.