Difficult behaviour, vicious traits....
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Difficult behaviour, vicious traits....
I am seeking some information regarding temperments of notable stallions (or for that matter, broodmares). As an example- did Halo have a distinct nasty disposition? Is the trait of a mean, nasty horse inherited? If a horse is bred top/bottom with a stallion that is known for being difficult and vicious, would that make the resulting offspring more prone to this behaviour? I'm looking for specific stallions (past/present) that are known to carry this type of trait. Thanks in advance for any and all comments...
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Inish Glora
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I am no expert, but I do know Halo was considered mean, and he definitely has passed on his toughness to some of his offspring.
Also, I believe Roberto was rough. And Ribot. And Alleged. Umm...Storm Cat's can be a little hot.
We all know Dynaformer isn't a lamb, I don't know about his offspring. I know that Perfect Drift doesn't appear to be the nicest of horses.
If you know the stallion Changeintheweather, his female family is known for being evil.
Also, I believe Roberto was rough. And Ribot. And Alleged. Umm...Storm Cat's can be a little hot.
We all know Dynaformer isn't a lamb, I don't know about his offspring. I know that Perfect Drift doesn't appear to be the nicest of horses.
If you know the stallion Changeintheweather, his female family is known for being evil.
I know some traits are passed in the DNA, but I also know for certain that foals learn behavior as well, and mean, nasty mares can raise mean, nasty foals. Occasionally the mare is so mean that she raises a terrified cowardly blob of willing eagerness. But what of psychosis? Does insanity run in families? Perhaps some of our specialists in this area could answer..
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louis finochio
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As for the undesirable traits that surface in some TB. You will find that some offspring will have them and some wont. If a TB is 3X4 or 4X4 to a bad dude or mare, the chances are increased that some of the foals will follow suit.
Was Halo trained by Charlie Whitingham? If he was I can ask the grooms that worked for Charlie if Halo was a bad dude.
Was Halo trained by Charlie Whitingham? If he was I can ask the grooms that worked for Charlie if Halo was a bad dude.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
From everything I hear, Silver Ghost is a holy terror. Handlers do not let visitors near him. Even the conformational videos i have seen of him, he is wearing a full muzzle! 
You'll get a kick outta this, go here: http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/isd/st ... _no=881951
Click on the left side, Broadband video link. YOWCH!
Doesn't Deputy Minister has a healthy "back-off" reputation too?
Dray
You'll get a kick outta this, go here: http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/isd/st ... _no=881951
Click on the left side, Broadband video link. YOWCH!
Doesn't Deputy Minister has a healthy "back-off" reputation too?
Dray
Looks like Halo has some Man O War blood back several generations. I read one time that Man O War's son, War Relic, happily stomped a groom to death. Now that's nasty for you! Man O War's son Hardtack, sire of Seabiscuit, is another case of the nasties and nobody wanted to breed good mares to him. His stud services were offered free in Maryland for a time with no takers! It's all in the genetic makeup which can resurface down the generational lines.
Oh... my bad... at first I thought this thread was about me. 
Silver Ghost is fun! You can see that from the video and even better if you visit the farm.
Halo did, in fact, have a difficult streak. Some say he was mean, others simply difficult and "my way only" mentality. Devil's Bag is quite the kind stallion, but very intelligent. Interestingly, it is not unusual for the get of Devil's Bag to be stubborn and/ or difficult... and usually pretty sharp.
The Dynaformers are known for being extremely tough. I often thought it would be a good way to get back at a trainer via sending him a Dynaformer out of a Silver Ghost mare.
Actually, the entire Hail to Reason line seems to have some type of toughness, which is good for some things, but make it tough on others.
Ribot was extremely hot-blooded. In fact, the common saying was that he and his get had a tendency to "climb trees" whatever that means. Some of this toughness (and nuttiness) can be seen, at times, in the various lines which tie back to him.
The Storm Cats tend to run hot and can be tempermental. The seems to run all the way through his sons.
Interestingly, Forestry, who would seem to have every right to be a real "pistol" seems to have a pretty level head and seems to pass this along to his foals.
As I think about it, I'll post some other "characters". However, I don't think anything can match the poster boy for "badness", Silver Ghost.
Silver Ghost is fun! You can see that from the video and even better if you visit the farm.
Halo did, in fact, have a difficult streak. Some say he was mean, others simply difficult and "my way only" mentality. Devil's Bag is quite the kind stallion, but very intelligent. Interestingly, it is not unusual for the get of Devil's Bag to be stubborn and/ or difficult... and usually pretty sharp.
The Dynaformers are known for being extremely tough. I often thought it would be a good way to get back at a trainer via sending him a Dynaformer out of a Silver Ghost mare.
Actually, the entire Hail to Reason line seems to have some type of toughness, which is good for some things, but make it tough on others.
Ribot was extremely hot-blooded. In fact, the common saying was that he and his get had a tendency to "climb trees" whatever that means. Some of this toughness (and nuttiness) can be seen, at times, in the various lines which tie back to him.
The Storm Cats tend to run hot and can be tempermental. The seems to run all the way through his sons.
Interestingly, Forestry, who would seem to have every right to be a real "pistol" seems to have a pretty level head and seems to pass this along to his foals.
As I think about it, I'll post some other "characters". However, I don't think anything can match the poster boy for "badness", Silver Ghost.
My filly Coquinerie can be a mean lil girl. We have to keep her away from other fillies until saddling time-- even then she'll put back the ears and try to take a bite.
Serena's Song is known to be extremely aggressive as well. Denali wont let anyone alone with her especially when she has a foal. Once they get to weaning though she lightens up but it is said all her foals have had major quirks. Sorry, just spent time with her recently checking oout Denali. You'll never see a young foal of hers out with the other mares and foals-- they have to seperate her. Guess she knows she's the Queen Bee of any farm or broodmare band. Maybe its a size thing??? She's tiny.
Serena's Song is known to be extremely aggressive as well. Denali wont let anyone alone with her especially when she has a foal. Once they get to weaning though she lightens up but it is said all her foals have had major quirks. Sorry, just spent time with her recently checking oout Denali. You'll never see a young foal of hers out with the other mares and foals-- they have to seperate her. Guess she knows she's the Queen Bee of any farm or broodmare band. Maybe its a size thing??? She's tiny.
War Relic and Hard Tack were both closely inbred (3x3 and 3x2, respectively) to *Rock Sand, Man o' War's broodmare sire and an extremely high-strung horse whose stall had to be padded to a height of four feet because of his persistent kicking. *Rock Sand's temperament in turn probably had much to do with his maternal grandsire St. Simon, a horse almost as willful and difficult in disposition as he was great as a racer and sire. And St. Simon probably came by the nasties honestly, since his sire Galopin was also held to be pretty difficult.
A few horses are just plain vicious from the get-go, but a lot of times when you have a mean horse, what you have is an interaction between a high-strung or very dominant temperament in the horse with unintelligent handling by one or more humans. Hastings (Man o' War's grandsire) may have been one of this sort; although his dam *Cinderella was held to be an extremely evil-tempered mare, Hastings apparently did not start developing the savagery for which he later became famous until he was a four-year-old. His son Fair Play may also have been made worse by human handling than he would otherwise have been; his trainer later said that the horse was high-strung at two and three but not particularly difficult until he went to England, where he encountered the practice of "banging" or "wisping" to knock dust out of the coat. Some of the stableboys were pretty rough with the procedure, and the thin-skinned Fair Play apparently found it unendurable, becoming much harder to handle than he had been.
Fortunately for Man o' War, his trainer Louis Feustel had been an assistant trainer with both Fair Play and Mahubah (a highly nervous mare, like many of *Rock Sand's progeny) and had a pretty good idea of what he might expect in their son. In other hands, Man o' War might well have become a real savage; as it was, although he was certainly both high-strung and dominant, I don't recall ever reading anything that suggested he was a particularly dangerous stallion, especially after he came into Will Harbut's care.
A few horses are just plain vicious from the get-go, but a lot of times when you have a mean horse, what you have is an interaction between a high-strung or very dominant temperament in the horse with unintelligent handling by one or more humans. Hastings (Man o' War's grandsire) may have been one of this sort; although his dam *Cinderella was held to be an extremely evil-tempered mare, Hastings apparently did not start developing the savagery for which he later became famous until he was a four-year-old. His son Fair Play may also have been made worse by human handling than he would otherwise have been; his trainer later said that the horse was high-strung at two and three but not particularly difficult until he went to England, where he encountered the practice of "banging" or "wisping" to knock dust out of the coat. Some of the stableboys were pretty rough with the procedure, and the thin-skinned Fair Play apparently found it unendurable, becoming much harder to handle than he had been.
Fortunately for Man o' War, his trainer Louis Feustel had been an assistant trainer with both Fair Play and Mahubah (a highly nervous mare, like many of *Rock Sand's progeny) and had a pretty good idea of what he might expect in their son. In other hands, Man o' War might well have become a real savage; as it was, although he was certainly both high-strung and dominant, I don't recall ever reading anything that suggested he was a particularly dangerous stallion, especially after he came into Will Harbut's care.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis
Mahubah wrote:War Relic and Hard Tack were both closely inbred (3x3 and 3x2, respectively) to *Rock Sand, Man o' War's broodmare sire and an extremely high-strung horse whose stall had to be padded to a height of four feet because of his persistent kicking. *Rock Sand's temperament in turn probably had much to do with his maternal grandsire St. Simon, a horse almost as willful and difficult in disposition as he was great as a racer and sire. And St. Simon probably came by the nasties honestly, since his sire Galopin was also held to be pretty difficult.
A few horses are just plain vicious from the get-go, but a lot of times when you have a mean horse, what you have is an interaction between a high-strung or very dominant temperament in the horse with unintelligent handling by one or more humans. Hastings (Man o' War's grandsire) may have been one of this sort; although his dam *Cinderella was held to be an extremely evil-tempered mare, Hastings apparently did not start developing the savagery for which he later became famous until he was a four-year-old. His son Fair Play may also have been made worse by human handling than he would otherwise have been; his trainer later said that the horse was high-strung at two and three but not particularly difficult until he went to England, where he encountered the practice of "banging" or "wisping" to knock dust out of the coat. Some of the stableboys were pretty rough with the procedure, and the thin-skinned Fair Play apparently found it unendurable, becoming much harder to handle than he had been.
Fortunately for Man o' War, his trainer Louis Feustel had been an assistant trainer with both Fair Play and Mahubah (a highly nervous mare, like many of *Rock Sand's progeny) and had a pretty good idea of what he might expect in their son. In other hands, Man o' War might well have become a real savage; as it was, although he was certainly both high-strung and dominant, I don't recall ever reading anything that suggested he was a particularly dangerous stallion, especially after he came into Will Harbut's care.
Very interesting. Especially love the comment in the last paragraph about being able to prevent "savageness" by correct handling and knowledge of the bloodlines. I thought Texas got away with one of the biggest stallion steals ever when they landed Festival of Light-- but he was gelded due to a mauling.
Man O War was mean when young but as he matured he grew out of much of his nasty disposition. His sire Fair Play, grandsire Hastings, and another ancestor maybe West Australian all had very nasty dispositions. Fair Play produced many bad tempered sons such as Mad Hatter and Mad Play. Man O War also passed on a bad temperment to many of his get and their progeny.
Nasrullah was famous for his bad temperment. He was a fast juvenile when he wanted to run. When he didn't, he simply didn't run. As a stallion he was known for a nasty disposition and his grudges. He once acted up when trying to breed him to a mare. Bull Hancock got fed up with him and beat him with a broom handle until he calmed down. Afterwards Nasrullah would pin his ears back everytime he saw Hancock. Another time a vet tried to give Nasrullah a shot, which caused him to throw a tantrum like nothing the vet had ever seen. He never got the shot, and Nasrullah never again let the vet near him. I don't know for sure if Nasrullah passed that temperment on.
Ribot was leased to Darby Dan farm, but he was finally bought outright because the flight back to Europe was too risky for such a bad tempered (and very valuable) stallion. He aslo got into a serious fight with Swaps and both horses died soon afterward. He must have attacked Swaps because Swaps was a very gentle horse. I do not know if the fight had anything to do with their deaths in 1972 (both were 20).
Two famous mean geldings were Forego and John Henry.
Nasrullah was famous for his bad temperment. He was a fast juvenile when he wanted to run. When he didn't, he simply didn't run. As a stallion he was known for a nasty disposition and his grudges. He once acted up when trying to breed him to a mare. Bull Hancock got fed up with him and beat him with a broom handle until he calmed down. Afterwards Nasrullah would pin his ears back everytime he saw Hancock. Another time a vet tried to give Nasrullah a shot, which caused him to throw a tantrum like nothing the vet had ever seen. He never got the shot, and Nasrullah never again let the vet near him. I don't know for sure if Nasrullah passed that temperment on.
Ribot was leased to Darby Dan farm, but he was finally bought outright because the flight back to Europe was too risky for such a bad tempered (and very valuable) stallion. He aslo got into a serious fight with Swaps and both horses died soon afterward. He must have attacked Swaps because Swaps was a very gentle horse. I do not know if the fight had anything to do with their deaths in 1972 (both were 20).
Two famous mean geldings were Forego and John Henry.
This is a little off topic but it does have to do with savaging horses.Quite a few years ago i had the misfortune of rubbing a horse nick named Satan. He was by As Alleged by Alleged who was mentioned in an earlier post.He was probably the most rotten horse i had ever been around.He gave me bruises on top of bruises.He usually would always bite shoulders,occasionally snapping a tie chain to do so.Bungy's were useless.With a big screen in front of him he'd still be able to pick off the odd passer by.Well i had to try and get through to this horse. I knew kickin the crap out of him would have probably wouldnt have worked because a groom before me tried and ended up in the hospital.So for a while i took it.I would put a muzzle on him and that worked for a couple of days until he started rearing and striking when i'd approach with the muzzle.One day i was trying to catch him and the SOB bit me right on the neck about an inch from my juggular.I was still gushing pretty good when i went to the ambulance driver for him to take a look.We cleaned the cut and put some gauze on it.As i was sitting in the tack room i grabbed my sandwich and took a bite and screamed bloody murder.My sandwich was covered in tin foil and a piece was stuck to the bite I took and the vibrations killed my teeth.Thats when i got my sure fire way to stop a really bad horse to stop biting.I went strait to the works yard and asked them if they had any solid steel pipe.They said how big and I responded "A foot should do".They gave me a little more so off to the barn I go and right to Satan's stall.That dirty bugger charged from the back of the stall ears back and mouth wide open and chomped down on that piece of solid steel.That was the first time I had ever seen a horses eyes roll back in their head.He made funny faces and shifted his jaw for a good twenty minutes.The whole time i was standing in front of his stall.I went into his stall and this sucker was horrified of me hiding in the corner.i finally caught him and finish brushing him off.I looked in his mouth and there was a little blood coming out of 1 tooth that came out the next day.I know it sounds a little mean but this horse NEVER bit at anyone again!
Ryeno
Ryeno
"The easiest way to end up with a million dollars in the horseracing business is to start with 3 million!"
Bloodlines in this mix-
Here's more to the example;
A daughter (mean and vicious) of Halo is bred to a son of Mr. P. and produces a daughter. This daughter also expresses the vicious behaviour. This daughter is then bred to a son of Storm Cat (containing Halo on the Dam side) and produces offspring. The offspring of this mating also express the same nasty behaviour. There is never (known) abuse or mis-handling. Vicious behaviour expressed by all is biting, kicking, charging and generally terrible overall personality, difficulty to work with and train.
And here's another question for any breeders- WHY would anyone continue to breed these types of horses knowing the kind of offspring? And BTW, the offspring do nothing in the race world.
Here's more to the example;
A daughter (mean and vicious) of Halo is bred to a son of Mr. P. and produces a daughter. This daughter also expresses the vicious behaviour. This daughter is then bred to a son of Storm Cat (containing Halo on the Dam side) and produces offspring. The offspring of this mating also express the same nasty behaviour. There is never (known) abuse or mis-handling. Vicious behaviour expressed by all is biting, kicking, charging and generally terrible overall personality, difficulty to work with and train.
And here's another question for any breeders- WHY would anyone continue to breed these types of horses knowing the kind of offspring? And BTW, the offspring do nothing in the race world.
I know a lady who was mauled pretty badly by a stallion; that stallion viciously attacked her and had every intent of killing her, until the other farm stallion attacked the first stallion, giving her time to drag herself to safety. The stallion was a son of Alydar.
My A.P. Indy son is a sweetheart. Now, that's not exactly what I was told or the impression I was given when we bought him, but now that he's been here for a while and I've really gotten to know him, I can honestly say he has a golden personality.
Does anyone know the bloodlines of the horse in that famous picture... the Savage or something like that... where one horse is biting the other in a race?
My A.P. Indy son is a sweetheart. Now, that's not exactly what I was told or the impression I was given when we bought him, but now that he's been here for a while and I've really gotten to know him, I can honestly say he has a golden personality.
Does anyone know the bloodlines of the horse in that famous picture... the Savage or something like that... where one horse is biting the other in a race?
Roguelet wrote:I know a lady who was mauled pretty badly by a stallion; that stallion viciously attacked her and had every intent of killing her, until the other farm stallion attacked the first stallion, giving her time to drag herself to safety. The stallion was a son of Alydar.
My A.P. Indy son is a sweetheart. Now, that's not exactly what I was told or the impression I was given when we bought him, but now that he's been here for a while and I've really gotten to know him, I can honestly say he has a golden personality.
Does anyone know the bloodlines of the horse in that famous picture... the Savage or something like that... where one horse is biting the other in a race?
Hey Roguelet, which stallion was the one that saved the lady? I've heard a story like this and the savior was a son of Alydar.
Nu