Hat Trick- thoughts

geowarrior · Postby **geowarrior** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:48 pm

New at Walmac, Hat Trick by Sunday Silence. Is this one that could crack the American Market do people think?

madelyn · Postby **madelyn** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:45 pm

He's okay, but I think I like Silent Name better.

kimberley mine · Postby **kimberley mine** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:00 am

He has a lot to do at $15,000 to be level with Silent Name at $7500 or Agnes Gold at $3500.

sunday_silence · Postby **sunday_silence** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:09 am

Hat Trick's race record kicks Silent Name's and Agnes Gold's in the butt. Hat Trick is also better looking (at least to my eye) than Silent Name. I haven't seen Agnes Gold. I'm guessing Hat Trick would've been able to command a higher stud fee had he stayed in Japan. He seems well worth $15,000 here. US breeders love miler speed and we've never had a son of Sunday Silence anywhere near this good. Stronach and Co. probably weren't too thrilled to hear he was coming to town, but they did price Silent Name very competitively.

madelyn · Postby **madelyn** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:27 am

Um. Well Hat Trick ran well in the Far East. On the other hand, Silent Name's career was in France and the US, and to my way of thinking, will relate more to US and European breeders. So I disagree about the race record issue. I haven't seen either stallion in person to compare, but right now if I was choosing, it would be Silent Name at $7500. I'm a KY breeder so Agnes Trick doesn't remotely fit anywhere in my mares' futures.

sunday_silence · Postby **sunday_silence** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:51 am

I dunno. I see the G1 races that Hat Trick won in Asia as being a little more competitive and important than the listed and G2 races Silent Name won in Europe and the US, but that's just me. I know some people still don't give the racing over there much credit, but I see winning the Mile Championship and the Hong Kong Mile as being pretty sweet. Seems like, while Hat Trick was beating some pretty nice horses, like Daiwa Major and The Duke, Silent Name was losing to some pretty nice horses, like Aragorn and Kip Deville. A Japanese champion is still better in my eyes than a horse who never contended for championship honors anywhere. Now, if he were a Turkish champion or an Indian champion, I doubt I'd feel this way. But I feel like Japanese racing is stronger than it gets acknowledged for being.

rubicon1967 · Postby **rubicon1967** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:21 pm

one thing worthy of note when looking at silent name is the production of gold away in france. he is a half brother to the dam of silent name. gold away is the sire of alexander goldrun (multiple grp 1 winner). gold away is a bit of a sleeper and is likely to be a stallion on the rise soon with better and bigger books of mares having been and going to be bred to him

patrick

Ill-bred · Postby **Ill-bred** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:39 pm

Hat Trick looks significantly better on race record. He's a Japanese champion miler and Group 1 winner in Japan and Hong Kong.

Silent Name is a Grade 2 winner.

Loyola · Postby **Loyola** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:53 pm

Silent Name gets my vote! I saw him the day after he arrived at Adena Springs--although a little thin from racing, he's a great looking stallion and I really like the way Danzigaway's pedigree is constructed. I agree with Madelyn that Silent Name is a much better breeding bargain at his 7.5K fee.

sunday_silence · Postby **sunday_silence** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:58 pm

Don't mistake me, I never said I disliked Silent Name. I've been rooting for him to get a G1 for the past 2 years and his pedigree has a lot of upside. All I was saying is that I see how they feel Hat Trick is worthy of standing for $15K, based on his race record, looks, etc.

Loyola · Postby **Loyola** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:07 pm

I really think that Silent Name's best distance was between 7-8F and that his performance would have been much better had he been kept at his best distance. Having said that--I think the key to breeding with Silent Name (as with any stallion) is to breed to his strengths AND his weakness. So a mare that can run well over a route of ground (>8F) would be best suited for him. He's not exceptionally tall either, just 16H, so I'd send a taller mare (16 >) from the Mr. P line with as much buckpasser as you can muster. I just happen to have one that fits the bill.

Heidilady · Postby **Heidilady** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:04 pm

Olga George wrote:I really think that Silent Name's best distance was between 7-8F and that his performance would have been much better had he been kept at his best distance. Having said that--I think the key to breeding with Silent Name (as with any stallion) is to breed to his strengths AND his weakness. So a mare that can run well over a route of ground (>8F) would be best suited for him. He's not exceptionally tall either, just 16H, so I'd send a taller mare (16 >) from the Mr. P line with as much buckpasser as you can muster. I just happen to have one that fits the bill.

I don't know that taller is necessarily better. 16 hands is just fine. Everyone assumes they need to have this massive animal but it's proportion that would concern me as well as whether he's got good bone. If Silent Name's well proportioned, a mare that's substantially different would not be first on my list for him. There was something relating to this on I think Bloodhorse.com, probably in Talkin' Horses but I could be wrong. The implication was that you could end up with something screwy if you go 'oh he's got a short back, let's send a long-backed mare' without accounting for other things. I know I saw something interesting about the breeding of speed to router blood but I'm drawing a blank on it. I'll let you know if I find it.

I think both Silent Name and Hat Trick are interesting but I haven't been comparing them too closely so I'll reserve judgment on that until I've done some research. I just looked at each individually as they came on the scene and wondered if they'd make a good source of Sunday Silence for the U.S.

geowarrior · Postby **geowarrior** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:52 pm

I haven't seen a good conformation photo of Silent Name, but there has been a lot of discussion recently about the excellent quality of Japanese racing and Hat Trick is a G1 winner as well as a G2 winner on dirt. His dam is an all American, however, and so that's why I was wondering about his success. Not so much whether people will pay the money for him but as to whether he will get good runners in the American Market. And really, does it have to be one or the other? We lost so much of that Halo blood, I want them both to succeed to get some of it back.

Loyola · Postby **Loyola** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:19 am

I look at a stallions strengths (Silent Name was a great 7-8F runner) and his weaknesses (he is not quite 16 Hands, actually 15.3+ is his true measure), and try and breed a good racehorse without sacrifricing much. At under 16 hands, my point was that I wouldn't want to take a small mare to him. And while my intent is not to produce giants, you have to consider the resulting size for both racing or if you may want to sell the foal. The mare I'm sending to Silent Name is the same "physical type" as him, but happens to be a tad taller, which I think makes her a better fit for him. Because of her height (16.2+) I have to be careful who I breed her to, and stay away from the big boys well over 16H.

I'm surprized how many breeders send mares to stallions without ever seeing anything more than a photo, so I want to provide as much info on this board as possible.

Loyola · Postby **Loyola** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:41 am

geowarrior wrote:I haven't seen a good conformation photo of Silent Name, but there has been a lot of discussion recently about the excellent quality of Japanese racing and Hat Trick is a G1 winner as well as a G2 winner on dirt. His dam is an all American, however, and so that's why I was wondering about his success. Not so much whether people will pay the money for him but as to whether he will get good runners in the American Market. And really, does it have to be one or the other? We lost so much of that Halo blood, I want them both to succeed to get some of it back.

Geo--I'm very happy to see the reemergence of Halo descending stallions here in the US, and I sincerely hope they are well supported and successful. Another Japanese stallion that I think is already proving himself worthy is Sunday Break. His first crop of 2 yo's are doing quite well (on all surfaces) and I think they will contunue to improve as they get older and the distance stretches out.