Bedouwia
Scrappy Roo
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
Scrappy Roo
What a gutsy win last night for the under appreciated Texas bred, Scrappy Roo in the G3 Connally Stakes on the turf at Sam Houston. I am so proud of our "home boy' who as the pundits kept saying was taking a huge step up in class, facing shippers with previous graded stakes experience and success. I guess nobody told Scrappy Roo that he was not supposed to win.
Bedouwia
Bedouwia
Scrappy Roo
Congrats on the race. It had to be exciting for his connections. I looked at his pedigree and could find no black type in his dam line except for Scrappy and his half sister, plus another 100K sibling.
My question: Is the dam's 3x3 to Northern Dancer the upswing in quality or is it something else?
While I'm on Texas, I noticed a work published this week down there and it was 1 of 108. How many horses are in training at those Texas tracks and how many horse can be stabled there?
My question: Is the dam's 3x3 to Northern Dancer the upswing in quality or is it something else?
While I'm on Texas, I noticed a work published this week down there and it was 1 of 108. How many horses are in training at those Texas tracks and how many horse can be stabled there?
He ran one hell of a race. I watched it from the fence near the finish line standing next to Steve Asmussen, who looked very disapointed about the order of finish.
Great race and story! As we watched the winning connections in the winners circle I turned to my wife and said this is what it's all about. This is why we race.
Great race and story! As we watched the winning connections in the winners circle I turned to my wife and said this is what it's all about. This is why we race.
It was a great race. I bet on Scrappy Roo for all the hometown sentimental reasons, wanting the underdog to win. That horse TRIED, I'll give him that. He was all heart coming down the stretch. I got choked up, watching him give it his all. The previous poster's comment was true...no one told Scrappy Roo that he was over his head and his pedigree!
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geowarrior
- Leading Sire
- Posts: 3593
- Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:45 pm
- Location: Spokane, WA
hpkingjr -
The inbreeding to Northern Dancer on his dam's side is the obvious close up strength in SCRAPPY ROO's pedigree. (Personally, I am quite partial to Tom Fool/Menow combo behind SCRAPPY ROO's "BUCKPASSER" sireline. I think Buckpasser in a pedigree is almost always a plus - providing a shot of real class and classic distance capability - the question is always one of whether or not the speed will be there in following generations. ROO ART was a very successful son of BUCKPASSER so soundness and class were evidenced in his racing career. It seemed though that as a stallion here in Texas he did not get the numbers nor the quality of mares his racing success, pedigre and physical type might have warranted? In any event it seemed to me that few of his offspring proved to be precocious and that's what the Texas market has always been dominated by - plus it's one of ROO ART's positives as a sire: i.e. that he raced so successfully as a 2YO. So perhaps when few of his offspring seemed to mirror that early developing ability interest in him died down OR perhaps it was a matter of finding just the right combination of genetics and physical match. When the right match was made he produced some good runners/winners. In this case perhaps the dam is bringing a sound but more speed oriented production history and pedigree to the table - but one with some back class that happens to need/want the influences SCRAPPY ROO's sire, ROO ART provided?). IF so I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the influential contributors from ROO ART's side of SCRAPPY ROO's pedigree came from way back.
Taking a look at the Linebreeding report - you don't find the sireline PROPORTINATELY (my term - read on to get what I'm driving at) contributing many influences to the dominance of the dam's pedigree until you get to ST. SIMON and CYLLENE. Whereas for all the pedigree influences/elements closer up in the pedigre (5th, 6th and 7th removes) it is a case of at most just one or two occurrences in the sire's ped as compared to 2, sometimes 4 times that on the dam's side or more. That pattern is reversed with St. Simon. St. Simon has 6 or 7 occurrences within the first 9 gens of Roo Art's sireline as compared to only 1 or 2 on his dam's side. As for Cyllene - there are 9 influences or occurrences and they are all on the sire's side.
Realize that's way back there but thought it significant that they represented the first time you really see an element of Roo Art's pedigree dominating the dam's in terms of the number of contributions or occurrences. That and the contribution made by the BUCKPASSER/TOM FOOL/MENOW influences close up.
So basicly I would say ROO ART only slightly mirrored the dam's pedigree while essentially representing an outcross; bringing in the preponent influence of BUCKPASSER, etc., but alos making a major injection further back of the qualities embodied by St. Simon and Cyllene - perhaps that was what this rather otherwise unremarkable mare's pedigree was needing/wanting all along?
I can add this from a personal inspection made - several years before he died - say around the 1998 time frame - that ROO ART was physically the epitome of a classic English "thoroughbred" as so often depicted in 'sporting art' of the 19th and early 20th century. He had presence, giving the sense that he was tall, leggy yet well balanced fore to hind and lean in a physically fit manner - not starved or a poor keeper. He gave the impression generally of being a very racey, elegant individual without being in the least dainty, fragile or slight in his appearance. That overall impression plus an elegant long neck, lovely head and his very dark bay - almost black - coat color and as a stallion he certainly was a looker. He was not so close-coupled, muscular and well-sprung about the barrel as many of today's thoroughbreds are. I am thrilled to see a ROO ART doing so well - he was a great looking stallion and his pedigree embodied much promise so it is great seeing it realized in SCRAPPY ROO.
The inbreeding to Northern Dancer on his dam's side is the obvious close up strength in SCRAPPY ROO's pedigree. (Personally, I am quite partial to Tom Fool/Menow combo behind SCRAPPY ROO's "BUCKPASSER" sireline. I think Buckpasser in a pedigree is almost always a plus - providing a shot of real class and classic distance capability - the question is always one of whether or not the speed will be there in following generations. ROO ART was a very successful son of BUCKPASSER so soundness and class were evidenced in his racing career. It seemed though that as a stallion here in Texas he did not get the numbers nor the quality of mares his racing success, pedigre and physical type might have warranted? In any event it seemed to me that few of his offspring proved to be precocious and that's what the Texas market has always been dominated by - plus it's one of ROO ART's positives as a sire: i.e. that he raced so successfully as a 2YO. So perhaps when few of his offspring seemed to mirror that early developing ability interest in him died down OR perhaps it was a matter of finding just the right combination of genetics and physical match. When the right match was made he produced some good runners/winners. In this case perhaps the dam is bringing a sound but more speed oriented production history and pedigree to the table - but one with some back class that happens to need/want the influences SCRAPPY ROO's sire, ROO ART provided?). IF so I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the influential contributors from ROO ART's side of SCRAPPY ROO's pedigree came from way back.
Taking a look at the Linebreeding report - you don't find the sireline PROPORTINATELY (my term - read on to get what I'm driving at) contributing many influences to the dominance of the dam's pedigree until you get to ST. SIMON and CYLLENE. Whereas for all the pedigree influences/elements closer up in the pedigre (5th, 6th and 7th removes) it is a case of at most just one or two occurrences in the sire's ped as compared to 2, sometimes 4 times that on the dam's side or more. That pattern is reversed with St. Simon. St. Simon has 6 or 7 occurrences within the first 9 gens of Roo Art's sireline as compared to only 1 or 2 on his dam's side. As for Cyllene - there are 9 influences or occurrences and they are all on the sire's side.
Realize that's way back there but thought it significant that they represented the first time you really see an element of Roo Art's pedigree dominating the dam's in terms of the number of contributions or occurrences. That and the contribution made by the BUCKPASSER/TOM FOOL/MENOW influences close up.
So basicly I would say ROO ART only slightly mirrored the dam's pedigree while essentially representing an outcross; bringing in the preponent influence of BUCKPASSER, etc., but alos making a major injection further back of the qualities embodied by St. Simon and Cyllene - perhaps that was what this rather otherwise unremarkable mare's pedigree was needing/wanting all along?
I can add this from a personal inspection made - several years before he died - say around the 1998 time frame - that ROO ART was physically the epitome of a classic English "thoroughbred" as so often depicted in 'sporting art' of the 19th and early 20th century. He had presence, giving the sense that he was tall, leggy yet well balanced fore to hind and lean in a physically fit manner - not starved or a poor keeper. He gave the impression generally of being a very racey, elegant individual without being in the least dainty, fragile or slight in his appearance. That overall impression plus an elegant long neck, lovely head and his very dark bay - almost black - coat color and as a stallion he certainly was a looker. He was not so close-coupled, muscular and well-sprung about the barrel as many of today's thoroughbreds are. I am thrilled to see a ROO ART doing so well - he was a great looking stallion and his pedigree embodied much promise so it is great seeing it realized in SCRAPPY ROO.
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Codysmom55
- Weanling
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:13 pm
A good friend of mine told me about this race. She has seen some of the great ones over the years, but she was emotional about this horse. He must have turned in one hell of a performance. Congrats to all his connections!!! I was at Oaklawn for Zenyatta's race and wasn't able to see it on t.v. I look forward to seeing this guy run.
According Joe Kerby Roo Art's stallion manager, Scappy's success comes from a phyical matching of the mare's strengths and Roo's strengths. I like to think it comes from matching the phyical traits in the sire and dam and the pedigree traits in the second and third removes. He did run an excellent race. We have thrown Scrappy around in several threads at
www.texasthoroughbred.com/forum
We in Texas needed Scrappy for an up lift.
www.texasthoroughbred.com/forum
We in Texas needed Scrappy for an up lift.
As a follow-up for my fellow Texas TB breeders/fans - if not for others - the Houston Chronicle had an article on SCRAPPY ROO in their Sports section today b/c of his being named Horse of the Meet at conclusion of Sam Houston Race Park's TB meet. He also got two other 'Champion' awards - Turf Horse of the Meet and another I can't recall. What was interesting about the article was it talked about how this horse injured himself very badly going through a barbed wire fence about a year ago just as he was to be loaded in the trailer and taken to Reminton Park to begin his racing career - ripped the skin on one of his hind legs down to the bone. Article went on to report the owner stating it was up to his former trainer - based in OK - who gave SCRAPPY ROO daily treatments to that injured leg that he ever got to race. They transferred him to John Locke only when that former trainer chose not to go to SHRP at the conclusion of Remington's meet. SCRAPPY ROO has overcome some serious injury to achieve Horse of the Meet status. "Scrappy" indeed. He was John Locke's first ever Graded Stakes Winner too! He's now at Lone Star and we'll see how he does up there for all his connections. Thought it was nice of his owners to acknowlege the role his former trainer has had in his eventual success without taking anything away from what John Locke has accomplished with him.
Jellac, I tried to post to Joe on the TTA page, but I guess they are not going to allow me to post because I am an outlaw with the nerve to disagree. I will try to get him at his site if you want. I think it is at www.keyranch.com
Jellac and Roger
Thanks to both for your insights into the pedigree and physical matching. I read the posts like the conclusion to a good novel. Well done all.
Roger, your post did eventually make it. I am copying Joe's reply here because it is relevant to the discussion, and I think very interesting. Jellac, can you give us a link to the Houston Chronicle article?
Bedouwia
JOE'S POST:
Posted - 04/11/2008 : 02:55:44
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Sorry Roger, the only time I have to catch up is when I am waiting on a foal to nurse these days. You should see the Abbie filly born Wed night, a star is born.
The first time I bred Dances Lyph to Roo Art was in Oklahoma and the name of that foal was It's Roo. He was a stakes winner over 150k. I do believe in repeating the successful matings at every opportunity. The parameters were the same then as now. The stallions are there to improve the mares, the mares are not brought in to prove the stallions. Roo Art had already produced a 400k stakes winner and some good allowance winners with Northern Dancer line mares. Of these mares the most successful had the breeding for the mares to be compact with mass like the Vice Regents, Danzigs, etc. After seeing the first foals for Roo it became apparent that would be his best hit. He refined and improved all the mares with that body type.
Dances Lyph is small and blocky like a lot of QH mares. As far as having some 6th generation linebreeding pattern and all that. There was none in the original decision. The nick worked for Roo, the physical match worked for Roo, and the balance worked for Roo. Originally the mare was booked to Lightning Leap, and Lightning had success with Lyphard line mares. Physically it just did not fit. She was not physically a Lyphard mare. She expressed the genetics from her distaff side.
I would like to make this point on the stallions that already have runners to look at. People like the Werk nicks and we make them available for our stallions. Once there are runners to look at for a stallion the nicks that count are from his own production and not the production of the sire line. Roo was not a typical Buckaroo stallion, he was smaller, longer, and more refined. It should not be surprising that his best production was not A++ nicks, simply because the ratings were based upon physically different horses.
Bedouwia
JOE'S POST:
Posted - 04/11/2008 : 02:55:44
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Sorry Roger, the only time I have to catch up is when I am waiting on a foal to nurse these days. You should see the Abbie filly born Wed night, a star is born.
The first time I bred Dances Lyph to Roo Art was in Oklahoma and the name of that foal was It's Roo. He was a stakes winner over 150k. I do believe in repeating the successful matings at every opportunity. The parameters were the same then as now. The stallions are there to improve the mares, the mares are not brought in to prove the stallions. Roo Art had already produced a 400k stakes winner and some good allowance winners with Northern Dancer line mares. Of these mares the most successful had the breeding for the mares to be compact with mass like the Vice Regents, Danzigs, etc. After seeing the first foals for Roo it became apparent that would be his best hit. He refined and improved all the mares with that body type.
Dances Lyph is small and blocky like a lot of QH mares. As far as having some 6th generation linebreeding pattern and all that. There was none in the original decision. The nick worked for Roo, the physical match worked for Roo, and the balance worked for Roo. Originally the mare was booked to Lightning Leap, and Lightning had success with Lyphard line mares. Physically it just did not fit. She was not physically a Lyphard mare. She expressed the genetics from her distaff side.
I would like to make this point on the stallions that already have runners to look at. People like the Werk nicks and we make them available for our stallions. Once there are runners to look at for a stallion the nicks that count are from his own production and not the production of the sire line. Roo was not a typical Buckaroo stallion, he was smaller, longer, and more refined. It should not be surprising that his best production was not A++ nicks, simply because the ratings were based upon physically different horses.
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keyranch
- Allowance Winner
- Posts: 433
- Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:56 am
- Location: salado, texas
- Contact:
scrappy roo
The comments about Roos Texas breeding history are pretty close. Roo bred 72 mares the year before we left OK. The first year in Texas was at Summers Mill while we were getting his new home ready. The second year was his first year in Texas at a brand new farm no one in Texas ever heard of. Most of his mares were Oklahoma fans that sent the mares south and that included Dances Lyph. The out of state clients supported the horse and the new farm.
The history of breeding farms and stallions in Texas is that the majority do not survive very long and as a mare owner you have to be concerned about sending your mare to a new place you have no connections with the people. The initial stallions at Key Ranch paid the price in helping establish the farm and to help make and maintain the connections to recruit the stallions to come. Many of his foals did not get the racing opportunity they needed and since the Texas trainers had not seen the other Roos run, their expectations were pretty low on the horses.
All the connections to Scrappy have done an outstanding job. I will tell you, David made sure that when Its Roo was done racing that he was returned to him to be pensioned at his farm. It is a good day for racing when good people have good things happen to their horses.
Roo was a warrior on the racetrack and he is buried on by the stallion barn where he will always be remembered for his contribution to the development of the farm.
The history of breeding farms and stallions in Texas is that the majority do not survive very long and as a mare owner you have to be concerned about sending your mare to a new place you have no connections with the people. The initial stallions at Key Ranch paid the price in helping establish the farm and to help make and maintain the connections to recruit the stallions to come. Many of his foals did not get the racing opportunity they needed and since the Texas trainers had not seen the other Roos run, their expectations were pretty low on the horses.
All the connections to Scrappy have done an outstanding job. I will tell you, David made sure that when Its Roo was done racing that he was returned to him to be pensioned at his farm. It is a good day for racing when good people have good things happen to their horses.
Roo was a warrior on the racetrack and he is buried on by the stallion barn where he will always be remembered for his contribution to the development of the farm.