Good runners with non-comercial pedigrees
Say Florida Sandy
Friendly Island
Silver Wagon
Luftikus
Evansville Slew
Repent
Raffie's Majesty
Request For Parole
Prime Timber
Swiss Yodeler
Limit Out
Stormy Jack
Horses with non-commercial pedigrees have often have a disadvantage not getting top runners by not being bred to top mares. What if Seattle Slew never made it to the Triple Crown because at the time his pedigree was not commercial, would he have been bred to top mares. We often place too much on pedigree and not on the quality of the horse that some very nice stallion prospects never really get the chance not getting the top mares. Repent and Swiss Yodeler get very good runners and were able to bred to at a very reasonable stud fees the first couple of years. Isn't it better to breed to a great runner than a horse with a great pedigree?
Keith
Stallions with non-commercial pedigrees do not get top mares
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
And alot of those horses are regional. How many stallions in California are getting better overall mare books than Swiss Yodeler? I've heard that Stormy Jack is getting 100 mares this year because of Bob Black Jack.
Also, there is a saying I take to heart when I make stallion selections "Every stallion has one" and the better ones should have more than that. Yeah lots of people can point to a flashy Grade 1 winner and say you should breed to that stallion. But what about a stallion that has 430 runners and no other graded or graded stakes placed runner? An AEI of 1.30 is not amazing for a stallion that stands for $10,000. Not when you can breed to Benchmark (1.59) or Tribal Rule (1.47) or Salt Lake, Formal Gold and Good Journey to name a few for that and less.
Just pointing out that a lot more can go into stallion selection than "fashion" especially in a regional market where more people breed and buy to race as opposed to pinhook.
Also, there is a saying I take to heart when I make stallion selections "Every stallion has one" and the better ones should have more than that. Yeah lots of people can point to a flashy Grade 1 winner and say you should breed to that stallion. But what about a stallion that has 430 runners and no other graded or graded stakes placed runner? An AEI of 1.30 is not amazing for a stallion that stands for $10,000. Not when you can breed to Benchmark (1.59) or Tribal Rule (1.47) or Salt Lake, Formal Gold and Good Journey to name a few for that and less.
Just pointing out that a lot more can go into stallion selection than "fashion" especially in a regional market where more people breed and buy to race as opposed to pinhook.
Reign Road comes to mind when it comes to horses that did well as race horses but not as sires. In Massachusetts is one stallion who as a race horse was not the greatest 25 starts 5 1 2 $14,170. but his percentage of SW to foals is 12% and black type to runners 53% 76% winner to runners average earnings per runner $56K. average starts per runner is 27. His name is Sundance Ridge by Cox's Ridge x Royal Suite by Majestic Prince. He sires to his pedigree but there are many stallions that sire to their race records and have had outstanding pedigrees but were flops at stud. The odds are better that a SW will be a successful stallion but their are no guarantees in nature. Red Ryder was full brother to Mr.Prospector and he was not outstanding at stud. A sound horse is more likely to sire sound horses and soundness is the foundation everybody should be building on. Fashionable or "name brand" pedigrees may not be around a really long time if they are unsound and produce unsound because that unsoundness will sooner or later bring their downfall. I believe in breeding sound and fast horses preferably with stamina and versatility. A lot of "name brand" horses are over hyped unsound inferior sires that I would not want to breed to for free. I only have one mare for my stallion right now but I believe he could be a good sire of sound runners with the right mares. He is a SW and his sire set a NWR but he is not fashionable. A sires potential is in his genetic makeup and his success or failure depends on how well his genes combine with the mares he is bred to and a bit of luck as well that no undesirable recessives are brought out.
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Jenny
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sound fast said
I totally agree with you on that one. People would rather breed to the over hyped stallion at a big farm that give the little guy a shot. Stallions that only had a few starts and had less than stellar race records. Pay more money for an inferior product to boot! There are a few stallions in our area that have already produced graded winners and champions in the US, Canada and Europe and they get passed by for stallions who are new and hyped to the hilt, and were by no doubt inferior race horses! Makes you shake your head.
A lot of "name brand" horses are over hyped unsound inferior sires that I would not want to breed to for free.
I totally agree with you on that one. People would rather breed to the over hyped stallion at a big farm that give the little guy a shot. Stallions that only had a few starts and had less than stellar race records. Pay more money for an inferior product to boot! There are a few stallions in our area that have already produced graded winners and champions in the US, Canada and Europe and they get passed by for stallions who are new and hyped to the hilt, and were by no doubt inferior race horses! Makes you shake your head.
How does a non commercial stallion get a chance?
How does a stallion with a non-comercial pedigree get a chance. Some horses are by great sires but are not known as being sire of sires
Alydar
Bull Lea
Secretariat
Kris S.
Pleasant Colony
Dynaformer
Sir Ivor
Nijinsky II
Buckpasser
Key To The Mint
Some pedigrees are too weak considering a horse like Snow Chief. How can some stallions get a great start without getting good mares. Not all stallions are like Mr. Prospector,Saint Ballado,Malibu Moon, Distorted Humor,El Prado, or even Dynaformer who have improved on their mares when started out at very affordable stud fees. All those stallions have very good pedigrees. Look at a horse like Repent who was a very good racehorse but he is by Louis Quatorze and out of Baby Grace a great mare but Argentine bred and already the the dam of Canadian Champion Sprinter King Ruckus who is a gelding. Repent was a very good racehorse out of a very good mare and by Louis Quatorze. His pedigree is non commericial but is turning out to be a very good sire. Is there any chance Birdstone will be a good sire because being by Grindestone makes him Non- Commercial? Jazil is another stallion but being by Seeking The Gold not really making himself known as a sire of sires could make him borderline non-commercial. Non Commercial Mr. Prospector bloodlines include Conquistador Cielo and Crafty Prospector. Harlan's Holiday has a non-commercial pedigree and is turning out to be a good sire. The same can be said for Posse who has a non-commercial pedigree. Successful Appeal, In Excess, and More Than Ready have non-commercial pedigree and are very good sires. Why does one just have to breed to a son of Storm Cat,A.P. Indy, or Distorted Humor?
Keith
Alydar
Bull Lea
Secretariat
Kris S.
Pleasant Colony
Dynaformer
Sir Ivor
Nijinsky II
Buckpasser
Key To The Mint
Some pedigrees are too weak considering a horse like Snow Chief. How can some stallions get a great start without getting good mares. Not all stallions are like Mr. Prospector,Saint Ballado,Malibu Moon, Distorted Humor,El Prado, or even Dynaformer who have improved on their mares when started out at very affordable stud fees. All those stallions have very good pedigrees. Look at a horse like Repent who was a very good racehorse but he is by Louis Quatorze and out of Baby Grace a great mare but Argentine bred and already the the dam of Canadian Champion Sprinter King Ruckus who is a gelding. Repent was a very good racehorse out of a very good mare and by Louis Quatorze. His pedigree is non commericial but is turning out to be a very good sire. Is there any chance Birdstone will be a good sire because being by Grindestone makes him Non- Commercial? Jazil is another stallion but being by Seeking The Gold not really making himself known as a sire of sires could make him borderline non-commercial. Non Commercial Mr. Prospector bloodlines include Conquistador Cielo and Crafty Prospector. Harlan's Holiday has a non-commercial pedigree and is turning out to be a good sire. The same can be said for Posse who has a non-commercial pedigree. Successful Appeal, In Excess, and More Than Ready have non-commercial pedigree and are very good sires. Why does one just have to breed to a son of Storm Cat,A.P. Indy, or Distorted Humor?
Keith
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journeyman
- Weanling
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- Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:22 am
Keith,
You listed a group of "good race horses" with non commercial pedigrees. My point of view is that you only listed 2 "good" race horses (Repent and Silver Wagon) and a group of useful horses. A non commercially bred stallion will work if he is an exceptional race horse without limiting faults.
Likewise, useful horses don't generally make good stallions no matter who their daddy is!
You listed a group of "good race horses" with non commercial pedigrees. My point of view is that you only listed 2 "good" race horses (Repent and Silver Wagon) and a group of useful horses. A non commercially bred stallion will work if he is an exceptional race horse without limiting faults.
Likewise, useful horses don't generally make good stallions no matter who their daddy is!
The 55 sons of A P Indy according to Thoroughbred Times stallion register have only 3% stakes winners and 37% winners with average earnings below $40K. Storm Cat has 154 sons at stud with 4% stakes winners 43% winners and average earnings below $40K. Distorted Humor 0. Commercial has different meanings to different people. What is or is not perceived as "commercial" can change. The only 2year old by Storm Cat at the OBS sale went for $400K which was a loss of $100K just on the stud fee. A good stallion is one who produces sound fast offspring preferably with stamina and versatility. If enough people who buy to race think he is commercial then he will be. People who breed with greed instead of the best interests of the horses and other people will sooner or later wind up losers. The people trying to persuade others to breed to sires and sons of sires with unsound offspring should be ignored. A lot of people are realizing that Storm Cat and A P Indy and most of their sons are not siring many sound offspring and someday they may be the non commercial sires. Try sons of Best Turn 5% SW's 59% winners $46K av. earnings. See also sons of Black Tie Affair,Blushing Groom,Bold Ruckus(also known for soundness),Buckaroo,etc. Those horses and many others have sons doing better than sons of Storm Cat and A P Indy. Bold Ruckus is one of the best. His 16 sons have 5% SW's,55% winners,average earnings $49K. Things are starting to change and buyers are becoming more interested in soundness and some are realizing that they have been suckered into paying high prices for "commercial" unsound horses who are costing them more than they will ever earn. Commercial is changing and smart breeders will breed to the best stallions instead of the most expensive so they will get offsping that can pass those vet checks. Check the number of mares bred last year for different stallions. Some "non commercial" sires are starting to be seen as commercial by some breeders.
Many stallions in regional markets are not good runners
Many stallions in regional markets are not good runners but are very well bred. A.P. Indy and Storm Cats have some nice sons at stud but many of them should not be studs but stand in regional markets where people breed to them. Good runners usually make better stallions but when it comes to breeding it is a crapshoot and there have been some great runners that did very poorly at stud. All I am saying is breeding to a good individual based on conformation and race record should take priority over pedigree. You need all three and a whole lot of luck.
Keith
Keith
Keith, I have the perfect example of a very well bred stallion that did not make a lot of money on the track. Take time and look up his pedigree and then tell me he doesn't deserve a chance at standing at stud. His name is Counter Punch by Cozzene. He has very good conformation, had a great racing mind, is intelligent and has a very, very active dam side. His dam and grand dam are producing quality runners. I'm not saying today he is another Storm Cat but with everything combined he should make a very useful regional stallion in Louisiana. His oldest foals are yearlings and they look the part. You might not agree but I'm going to promote the heck out of him and see what happens!! 
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journeyman
- Weanling
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:22 am
Keith made an interesting observation about Repent. One of the things that attracted me to Repent was his female family. Repent's dam also produced a champion sprinter in Canada as well as another stake winner. The fact that her pedigree was entirely foreign was beneficial, in my opinon, since that would briing some new blood into a North American breeding population that has become more and more closely inbred.
Most importantly to me though, was that Repent was perhaps the most talented horse in his crop. His race in the Travers coming off of 6 months lay off was amazing.
Retired to stud, the big challenge was to convince people to breed to a son of Louis Quatorze. We accomplished that by pointing out that Yes It's True was by Is It True, a similar quality horse as Louis Quatroze. Another successful Florida stallion, Montbrook, was a son of Buckaroo, while Great Above was a son of Minnesota Mac. Neither Minnesota Mac or Buckaroo are commercially preferable sires of sires. It is my experience, working in the Florida industry for 30 years, that Keith is right, performance trumps pedigree by a factor of 3 to 1 or better.
Most importantly to me though, was that Repent was perhaps the most talented horse in his crop. His race in the Travers coming off of 6 months lay off was amazing.
Retired to stud, the big challenge was to convince people to breed to a son of Louis Quatorze. We accomplished that by pointing out that Yes It's True was by Is It True, a similar quality horse as Louis Quatroze. Another successful Florida stallion, Montbrook, was a son of Buckaroo, while Great Above was a son of Minnesota Mac. Neither Minnesota Mac or Buckaroo are commercially preferable sires of sires. It is my experience, working in the Florida industry for 30 years, that Keith is right, performance trumps pedigree by a factor of 3 to 1 or better.
