Storm Cat
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
Dave C wrote:If 100 years ago you had told someone that the Lexington sire line (a sire line that dominated NA breeding for 20 straight years) would completely diappear in less than a century, they would have sought to have you committed to an asylum. The same could be said for the Hyperion sire line in the 1930's, it may still exist in some far off corner of the world but it is extinct in NA. Both sirelines can still be considered influential through their influence on female families but the sirelines are gone. To predict that SC and SW line sires will still be prevalent in 50 years seems to be pretty risky. If someone wants to put up money that those line will still be around I'm willing to take that bet.
Sirelines are overrated...
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wallinga
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Dave C wrote: To predict that SC and SW line sires will still be prevalent in 50 years seems to be pretty risky.
Hyperion is still a factor in plenty of pedigree's. No one's talking about sire lines, it's whether the stallions themselves will be remembered.
Ilbean wrote: I'd be awfully surprised if the Kentucky Derby winner in 2105 has a pedigree that's 10% Sadlers Wells...
They do race outside the US these days, besides, the way you seppo's are coming around, the Kentucky derby will be on grass or poly by 2105. El Prado is already an influence with you guys.
I do believe the subject was what would be said about these two in 50 years, not if their sire lines would still be alive and well. In 1958, 50 years ago, Nasrullah and Princequillo were the two big guns, do we sill talk about them today, the answer is yes even though the Princequillo sire line is gone in N.A. and Nasrullah is barely holding on. 2008 marks 47 years since the birth of Northern Dancer, do we still talk about him?
DDT
DDT
Most people buying horses today don't look any further than 3 generations back. I dare say you will not find Nasrullah or Princequillo in the 3rd generation of horses born in the last few years. I don't think people are getting excited about buying a foal or horse that goes back to either stallion. That's not to say these two, SC and SW, will not be mentioned or thought of, but only in passing. Just as the influence all the great sires of the past has diminished simply because they go further and further back in a pedigree. I again state I don't think they will disappear in 50 yrs but in my opinion their influence will not be a determining factor whether someone will pay big bucks for a foal as they do today for a SC or SW.
larrygene wrote:That's the number of generations they show in a sales catalogue. Most people when buying from a sale only look at the cataloque page and don't go back 6 or 7 generations.
Sorry but I have to disagree again. Suppose you glance at the top of a sales page and see Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector, and Seattle Slew in the third generation. Are the next several generations going to be a mystery to you? For savvy buyers (and don't kid yourself, most are) 3 generations is enough to show you what family you're dealing with.
Just because it isn't on the page doesn't mean buyers don't know it's there.
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wallinga
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larrygene wrote: I dare say you will not find Nasrullah or Princequillo in the 3rd generation of horses born in the last few years. I don't think people are getting excited about buying a foal or horse that goes back to either stallion.
Apart from anything by AP Indy or his sons? they go directly back.
Rahy? Goes directly back.
not to mention both Nasrullah and Princequillo's immense influence on the distaff side of pedigrees.
Sadler's won 14 sires titles! Unless there is an edict making horses with his name in their pedigrees illegal throughout the world, I don't see how he won't still be a massive factor in 50 years. Particularly as dirt racing is on the way out.
I am praying that Storm Cat will not be in too many pedigrees. He has a number of sons who retired because of fractures and even more grandchildren that have suffered fractures and a number of them have been catastrophic. One Cool Cat,Bluegrass Cat, and After Market are just a few of his sons to retire because of a bone fracture. His name seems to appear more than any other sire in number of descendants who broke bones. El Prado's are reasonably sound so I could be in favor of his branch of Sadler's Wells continuing. I am not as familiar with European horses.
soundfast wrote:I am praying that Storm Cat will not be in too many pedigrees. He has a number of sons who retired because of fractures and even more grandchildren that have suffered fractures and a number of them have been catastrophic. One Cool Cat,Bluegrass Cat, and After Market are just a few of his sons to retire because of a bone fracture.
Huh???
After Market retired completely sound.
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geowarrior
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While I agree that the female family is of paramount importance, I am interested in old sirelines and and am sorry when they die out. For example it looks as though Secretariat's sireline will die out tail male but he will have a lasting influence on the breed through his daughters. Although I could be wrong about that because there are still quite a few colts that are tail male to Secretariat and perhaps he could hang on in the Broad Brush/Domino fashion. I hope he does. Who would have thought when Secretariat won the Triple Crown that his record as a sire would have turned out as it did? Yet if Storm Cat does last, Secretariat will as well, since he is the broodmare sire of Storm Cat.
I think the thing that makes the original question difficult to predict for all of these modern 'sires of sires' is that once identified as a 'sire of sires' anyone will stand an unraced, unproven, conformationally unsuitable stallion just because he a son of the 'sire of sires'. So Storm Cat, Sadlers Wells and Seattle Slew are all currently in that situation and it remains to be seen just how many long lasting and influential sires they will actually produce. From that standpoint, Sadlers Wells looks the most promising in that department but as I said, that could change.
Although people like to look at female family, they do look at sires in a pedigree and many have a preference for a pedigree that contains certain sires reasonably close up. Princequillo is one of those. Many feel he is a source of stamina. And incidentally I believe there is at least one tale male descendant of Princequillo standing at stud - Snowbound. Snowbound is rather an amusing example because although he is still covering thoroughbred mares and they win races, he is probably better known in the quarter horse industry as - you guessed it - a stamina influence, with the 870 yard specialist Snowbound Superstar being his most famous son. From thoroughbred perspective, of course, this makes Snowbound a speed influence. So much for the stamina influence of Princequillo.
I personally like to see Eight Thirty, Count Fleet through his daughters, and What a Pleasure in a pedigree. Seeing these elements certainly makes me look at the rest more closely.
I think the thing that makes the original question difficult to predict for all of these modern 'sires of sires' is that once identified as a 'sire of sires' anyone will stand an unraced, unproven, conformationally unsuitable stallion just because he a son of the 'sire of sires'. So Storm Cat, Sadlers Wells and Seattle Slew are all currently in that situation and it remains to be seen just how many long lasting and influential sires they will actually produce. From that standpoint, Sadlers Wells looks the most promising in that department but as I said, that could change.
Although people like to look at female family, they do look at sires in a pedigree and many have a preference for a pedigree that contains certain sires reasonably close up. Princequillo is one of those. Many feel he is a source of stamina. And incidentally I believe there is at least one tale male descendant of Princequillo standing at stud - Snowbound. Snowbound is rather an amusing example because although he is still covering thoroughbred mares and they win races, he is probably better known in the quarter horse industry as - you guessed it - a stamina influence, with the 870 yard specialist Snowbound Superstar being his most famous son. From thoroughbred perspective, of course, this makes Snowbound a speed influence. So much for the stamina influence of Princequillo.
I personally like to see Eight Thirty, Count Fleet through his daughters, and What a Pleasure in a pedigree. Seeing these elements certainly makes me look at the rest more closely.
Sorry about that. After Market underwent successful surgery for a fractured sesamoid bone and raced again. He did suffer a fracture though.Tale Of The Cat fractured his left cannon bone and then his right cannon bone. T S Eliot was not so lucky after only 8 starts he was euthanized.Some of Storm Cat's grandchildren RIP after their fractures; Higher Cause,Name Your Prize,Wallyozzy,Miss Cozy Cat,Echo Cat,Little Causeway,Sage,High Pay,Ancient Tale,Western Prize,All Boy,etc. Some of the 2year olds did not live long enough to get a name. I like to see In Reality,Count Fleet,descendants of Fair Play like Man O'War,War Relic,War Admiral,Discovery,etc. I also like Polynesian and Native Dancer. Round Table is a horse I admire also.