Winstrol

[Foggytrip]

While I do not agree with Drew that Winstrol helps even a little bit on raceday, many steroids have certainly weakened the breed as a whole. Anytime horses with trumped up form, ghost G1 wins, or bologna figures, go to the shed it weakens the breed. We have been breeding inferior racehorses from a soundness perspective for a while now. It will not change as there is so much money in breeding these speedy unsound pedigrees. It does not help that a lot of the speed in these pedigrees can be attributed to horses being helped along, never getting a good read on their natural ability. Whether its steroids, or something more (which in most cases I believe it is something other than steroids) it needs to be stopped

[dray33]

dray, steriods have weakened the breed in what ways?

Thanks for the post larrygene... I think everything you bring up, from vitamin deficiency to breeding practices should be grist for the mill. But I want to address the steroid question directly. Putting aside the argument of how much it helps or hurts, and throwing aside the discussion about how a playing field being skewed damages the sport... steroids and medications in general have done an excellent job of damaging our breed, and it's insidious affects are going to be felt for generations. A few scenarios:

We own horses. Ideally, they would be able to race as two-year olds. Some don't think that's a smart practice. I do, IF the horse is sound and willing. When you and i get to these two year old races, many of the horses present themselves as muscled out steamrollers. They are pumped and pressed and ready to launch. It's not just Winstrol, it is a myriad of performance enhancing drugs being used. Winstrol is the tip o' the iceberg. Unless your horse is ready to that degree, your not in the same ballpark. So to remain competitive, even at the Maiden level, you must join or die. It's much worse that that, but we don't need to rehash the use of steroids by breeders, yearling consignors and two-year old consignors. Personally, I believe it is why many of the top trainers of early two year old races find it tougher to win at 3 and 4. The quarter horse trainers, used to a need for quick rockets, have a tough time training for distance. But I regress.

Foggy brings up an excellent point: "Anytime horses with trumped up form, ghost G1 wins, or bologna figures, go to the shed it weakens the breed. We have been breeding inferior racehorses from a soundness perspective for a while now." Think about this. IF the breed is not able to sustain itself as it was even 30 years ago (numerical data supports this, with fewer starts per lifetime, fewer starts per year, smaller average field size, shorter distance racing), how can artificially enhancing performance along the way NOT affect the breed? If the case is true and these medications do help, at all, we are building breeding practices like a house of cards, and the foundation is becoming unsound horses! Can you IMAGINE the damage if we factor in the unreported surgeries used to hide conformation flaws! That is akin to the house being built on a foundation that is not only weak, but is not actually REAL!

So what do we KNOW:

We DO know is that steroids, including Winstrol, do SOMETHING. Besides the negatives we know about, toss those out and concentrate on the good: What are some of these positive effects? They build muscle mass, speed recovery time, improve aggressiveness, increase appetite, make the coat shiny , We are doing this to our horses with the help of a needle. Therefore, as these horses that require the needle go off to breed, what do you think they will be reproducing. Better horses? Explain to me how THAT would be possible. The breed MUST become diminished over time, if we are hiding and enhancing the very things we rely on to build a sounder horse.

We DO know that owners that use Winstrol are using other medications. Some are legal, including legal race day meds. But I am sure, as we have seen with suspensions and the endless introduction of new cheats like milkshakes, that we are not seeing the full story. If we don't regulate, ban and punish, we are going to lose control. You say it won't happen, but I know better, it must... and I think it will (hope).

Saddest of all, we know that if you want to be in the game, and be somewhat competitive, you need to seek out the trainers and the vets who train using every advantage at their disposal to win. basically, that is what the sport is telling us. Shhhh. Fall in line. Join us. It's ok. It's legal. Others are doing it, you should too. Pardon my french, but BULLSHIT. The sport is ONLY for those willing to bend rules, abuse steroids and win at any cost? Maybe so. Why shouldn't we try to change it? There is so many reasons why we shouldn't. First: the cheaters will find a new drug du' jour. Second: there is too much going on to find or fix. Look at NY racing. How is it that trainers that race at Aqueduct win at 40%, they come to Belmont and win at 6%? Do the horses like the surroundings so much less? Have the trainers lost their touch and need another year to get it back? I haven't a clue. Change, as you have said, is nearly impossible in this sport. But as for me, I'm used to some black eyes.

John Mellencamp said it best:
I fight authority, authority always wins
I been doing it since I was a young kid and I come out grinnin'.
I fight authority, authority always wins.

We need to figure this out. Saying all the great trainers of the past used steroids, or that our horse heros were all juiced, does not change the need. the need is NOW. Peace.

[horsenuts]

dray, steriods have weakened the breed in what ways?

Thanks for the post larrygene... I think everything you bring up, from vitamin deficiency to breeding practices should be grist for the mill. But I want to address the steroid question directly. Putting aside the argument of how much it helps or hurts, and throwing aside the discussion about how a playing field being skewed damages the sport... steroids and medications in general have done an excellent job of damaging our breed, and it's insidious affects are going to be felt for generations. A few scenarios:

We own horses. Ideally, they would be able to race as two-year olds. Some don't think that's a smart practice. I do, IF the horse is sound and willing. When you and i get to these two year old races, many of the horses present themselves as muscled out steamrollers. They are pumped and pressed and ready to launch. It's not just Winstrol, it is a myriad of performance enhancing drugs being used. Winstrol is the tip o' the iceberg. Unless your horse is ready to that degree, your not in the same ballpark. So to remain competitive, even at the Maiden level, you must join or die. It's much worse that that, but we don't need to rehash the use of steroids by breeders, yearling consignors and two-year old consignors. Personally, I believe it is why many of the top trainers of early two year old races find it tougher to win at 3 and 4. The quarter horse trainers, used to a need for quick rockets, have a tough time training for distance. But I regress.

Foggy brings up an excellent point: "Anytime horses with trumped up form, ghost G1 wins, or bologna figures, go to the shed it weakens the breed. We have been breeding inferior racehorses from a soundness perspective for a while now." Think about this. IF the breed is not able to sustain itself as it was even 30 years ago (numerical data supports this, with fewer starts per lifetime, fewer starts per year, smaller average field size, shorter distance racing), how can artificially enhancing performance along the way NOT affect the breed? If the case is true and these medications do help, at all, we are building breeding practices like a house of cards, and the foundation is becoming unsound horses! Can you IMAGINE the damage if we factor in the unreported surgeries used to hide conformation flaws! That is akin to the house being built on a foundation that is not only weak, but is not actually REAL!

So what do we KNOW:

We DO know is that steroids, including Winstrol, do SOMETHING. Besides the negatives we know about, toss those out and concentrate on the good: What are some of these positive effects? They build muscle mass, speed recovery time, improve aggressiveness, increase appetite, make the coat shiny , We are doing this to our horses with the help of a needle. Therefore, as these horses that require the needle go off to breed, what do you think they will be reproducing. Better horses? Explain to me how THAT would be possible. The breed MUST become diminished over time, if we are hiding and enhancing the very things we rely on to build a sounder horse.

We DO know that owners that use Winstrol are using other medications. Some are legal, including legal race day meds. But I am sure, as we have seen with suspensions and the endless introduction of new cheats like milkshakes, that we are not seeing the full story. If we don't regulate, ban and punish, we are going to lose control. You say it won't happen, but I know better, it must... and I think it will (hope).

Saddest of all, we know that if you want to be in the game, and be somewhat competitive, you need to seek out the trainers and the vets who train using every advantage at their disposal to win. basically, that is what the sport is telling us. Shhhh. Fall in line. Join us. It's ok. It's legal. Others are doing it, you should too. Pardon my french, but BULLSHIT. The sport is ONLY for those willing to bend rules, abuse steroids and win at any cost? Maybe so. Why shouldn't we try to change it? There is so many reasons why we shouldn't. First: the cheaters will find a new drug du' jour. Second: there is too much going on to find or fix. Look at NY racing. How is it that trainers that race at Aqueduct win at 40%, they come to Belmont and win at 6%? Do the horses like the surroundings so much less? Have the trainers lost their touch and need another year to get it back? I haven't a clue. Change, as you have said, is nearly impossible in this sport. But as for me, I'm used to some black eyes.

John Mellencamp said it best:
I fight authority, authority always wins
I been doing it since I was a young kid and I come out grinnin'.
I fight authority, authority always wins.


We need to figure this out. Saying all the great trainers of the past used steroids, or that our horse heros were all juiced, does not change the need. the need is NOW. Peace.

The area where I have seen the biggest channge in racing is at the sales. I have never believed in buying an animal that I don't feel can be improved on and rarely do I see a horse at the sales that falls into that category. Most horses selling at TB sales in the current era look better then then race day horses being lead into the paddock to be saddled on race day. Yearlings are often the size of 2 year olds with rippling muscles and coats that shine and blossom. I'm stunned with how impressive these animals look for having never been in training. Yet, my research tells me many of these animals have indeed been in training both with exercise and nutrionally as well as medically often times.


Many modern day sales horses are put on a low fat high protein diet 90 to 120 days prior to sale along with an exercise regime involving aquacisers.. treadmills and other muscle building type activities. Rest assured medications are used regularly as well to enhance appearance and show ring appeal. And why I have no desire to buy animals that are at peak condition as they simply can't be improved upon with rare exception. So long before most race horses ever hit the track they have been 'enhanced' for the purpose of bringing top dollar.


This did not go on decades ago when family farms dominated the sport. They were raising horses to race not sell and raised them accordingly i.e. left them out in the pasture until they were ready to be broke late in the year as yearlings. Contrast that to today where they are brought up as weanlings and "green house" raised with all sorts of artificials added for appearnce and appeal and you have the start of the problem of the modern day TB. It's not just at the track that TB racing has gone off the rails.

[larrygene]

dray, horsenuts, both of you bring up relevant and important points concerning the TB industry. Many things need fixing or at least changing to some degree. As horsenuts said and I agree both the racing end and the breeding end are to blame. I just spoke to a friend that lives in Paris,KY. He told me there is a large well known farm that he visited that has one barn holding close to 60 or 70 mares and foals and every foal there has had some form of surgery performed on it. Now if that happening at one farm you know its happening at others. He was amazed and appalled!!!!!! He also said there were farms that conditioned sale yearlings with a eurocizer that had hot electric wiring on the front and rear panels and they would run the yearlings around and around!!! This is a very close friend that moved to KY about 2 years ago. He is so disheartened he has decided to sell and move away. What a sad commentary!!!! The point I make is it is not any one thing that is adversly affecting the industry but it appears guilt can be shared from bottom to top. JMO

[Twingirl]

Wow, I must live in a shoebox. I thought being proactive meant getting your horse it's yearly shots, floats, dewormings, and making sure it's nutritional needs were met sans syringe.

That's exactly what Casino Drive's connections were saying. In essence: "We don't give our horses medicine unless they are ill."

Let's keep some perspective...they don't run on drugs in Dubai. Not in Japan, not in England, etc.


Larrygene, excuse me for going off topic here, but it's the same with the canine trials. People find cattle prods on the back of trainer's trucks quite often. And the biggest debate is between American and British. The British don't use drugs, electric shock collars, or any of it. E-collars here, except with the few "amish" trainers who use natural training, is all but un-heard of in the higher levels of field trials and hunt trials in America.

And don't EVEN think lots of dogs haven't been *burnt to the ground* using these cough cough "training tools". I've seen 'em come out of their boxes and as soon as they see the trainers with the remote, their tails go between their legs. Instead of doing it without, like they do in Britain, we are just breeding more hyped-up, high-amp, fire-breathers.

I have a *softer* dog but he has a lot of heart. Lemme tell ya....You do NOT put an e-collar on this dog. Even on the lowest setting. This dog only works because he wants to, and he only responds to confidence-building and is very tractable. You condition him with an e-collar and he falls apart. I've unfortunately seen a lot of dogs fall apart this way....because don't think some of these guys don't "turn up the juice' becuase they do.
I'm not against e-collars per se, but the ability to abuse them in the hands of people is quite HIGH, IMHO.

Note to horsenuts: ecollars are not legal in Europe, but they are legal here so they are used. There are people the world over who have *successfully* trained hunting dogs without them.......for centuries.

ANYONE who has an animal athlete, and cares more about winning than they do about the animal itself is an unethical person, IMHO. And, they should be kept away from animals.

The ends do NOT always justify the means. MORE is not always better.

And, BTW, I can't STAND any of those PETA people. They know nothing about animal athletes. They don't even know much about animals in general. But there are some of us who do, but we're not in support of some of the *methods* currently being used in animal sports.

[dray33]

25 posts, and already you're firing bullets! YOU GO TWINGIRL. Excellent post, thanks for the insight.

[Sock Monkey]

He also said there were farms that conditioned sale yearlings with a eurocizer that had hot electric wiring on the front and rear panels and they would run the yearlings around and around!!

Just for clarification... the panels on most eurocisers are already set up for electricity. The reason for electrifiying them is to keep horses from pushing up against the panels. The panels will swing and you can wind up with two horses in one stall if you're not careful. .