Thank you!If ALPHA filly in pasture is she more likely to win OTT?
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If ALPHA filly in pasture is she more likely to win OTT?
I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW ALL YOUR OPINIONS! If a TB filly has a lower WERK NICK rating, BUT she is an instigator, always in the lead when running with other foals in the pasture, and in general "wrapped tight", the first to finish eating, is there a correlation between her being an ALPHA weanling and her making good money on the track? Seems to me because she was a leader and out going as a baby, she'd want to win more in a race?? Please share, especially those of you who breed and race your homebred's, you would certainly know Thank you!
Thank you!I've been thinking about this subject a bit lately. I haven't really come to a firm conclusion but I'll share a few of the observations that are shaping my views.
Dominant horses chase, they stop when the other horse is far enough away. Not necessarily what you want in a race horse.
Submissive horses are terrified of being caught by the horse chasing them. A useful quality if the make the lead in the stretch. Not so useful if they're on the front end at the beginning of the race and won't relax because of it.
I think it is very much an individual case basis. Some dominant horses will be dominant in such a way that it will help them at the track, some it will hurt them. The same for more submissive horses. I don't think you can make a simple personality generalization to pick out which yearling will be the better racehorse.
Dominant horses chase, they stop when the other horse is far enough away. Not necessarily what you want in a race horse.
Submissive horses are terrified of being caught by the horse chasing them. A useful quality if the make the lead in the stretch. Not so useful if they're on the front end at the beginning of the race and won't relax because of it.
I think it is very much an individual case basis. Some dominant horses will be dominant in such a way that it will help them at the track, some it will hurt them. The same for more submissive horses. I don't think you can make a simple personality generalization to pick out which yearling will be the better racehorse.
I have always gone by the dominance in the pasture. Like humans some horses are leaders and some are followers - followers don't win many races. The ability has to be there but it is much easier to develop if there is a desire and drive within the heart of the animal. Who are you going to believe numbers or your lyin' eyes. 
GOSH......all very good points!!!! this filly not only instigates, but runs off in the front keeps going, when she runs out of space in her 10 acre pasture with her 3 buddies, she turns around waits for them to catch up, then takes off again, she likes them chasing her...............so neat to watch. I don't have the means to have this gorgeous filly run, but I wish she could be bought for running, I'm sure she has a gift, she just leaves them!
http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-80563 My fast filly. I love her compact body and long legs, she has such a stride. (unable to copy and past her pic, can't figure out how to). [/img]
Two top, top mares were retired to Lane's End a couple of years ago (I wish I could remember their names!) Because they arrived around the same time, they were turned out together to keep each company. One immediately became the dominant mare: she instigated everything. The second mare was the follower; in the pasture she never took the lead.
Both were G1 winners.
Both were G1 winners.
LB wrote:Two top, top mares were retired to Lane's End a couple of years ago (I wish I could remember their names!) Because they arrived around the same time, they were turned out together to keep each company. One immediately became the dominant mare: she instigated everything. The second mare was the follower; in the pasture she never took the lead.
Both were G1 winners.
But was the submissive mare a front-runner? Had the speed to keep ahead by fright?
Seriously, I've always liked the bossy foal theory. Seattle Slew was in charge of his pasture when he was young. I think at least a dominant horse makes his own racing luck: "Don't you bump into ME, dude!" And I'll bet that Sunday Silence was bossy in his yearling paddock. I think if they hook up, the dominant horse will say, "Don't you run by me!" If a more submissive horse gets get momentum and goes by in a swoosh, then the intimidation factor can't really kick in (Easy Goer in this scenario).
"When I am on my deathbed, I imagine I will say, 'Thank God I did that'" - Arthur Hancock, on buying back Gato del Sol from Europe after Exceller was killed in a slaughterhouse in Sweden.
LB wrote:Two top, top mares were retired to Lane's End a couple of years ago (I wish I could remember their names!) Because they arrived around the same time, they were turned out together to keep each company. One immediately became the dominant mare: she instigated everything. The second mare was the follower; in the pasture she never took the lead.
Both were G1 winners.
I wonder though.......being in a stall on the track in isolation doesn't allow for a pecking order to take place. So I would think all horses OTT would be ALPHA until they retired to a pasture where someone has to take charge, that's just protocal. Maybe they even revert back to when they were weanlings, like mares becoming BM's. I wonder if the true ALPHAS go back to being ALPHAS, and the rest have to find their place again.
It would also be neat to know if a passive weanling, that ended up a great winner, that they changed and became an ALPHA after retirement? I bet not many owner's get to bring home and keep the winners that they create (maybe they are sold for profit), and actually even bother to discover what I'm talking about, yeah I bet some do while sitting on their back porches sipping something cold, shooting the breeze with a buddy
LB wrote:Two top, top mares were retired to Lane's End a couple of years ago (I wish I could remember their names!) Because they arrived around the same time, they were turned out together to keep each company. One immediately became the dominant mare: she instigated everything. The second mare was the follower; in the pasture she never took the lead.
Both were G1 winners.
was that Oija Board and Film Maker?
All shouting does is make you lose your voice.
----Arrested Development
----Arrested Development
reedhill wrote:I wonder though.......being in a stall on the track in isolation doesn't allow for a pecking order to take place. So I would think all horses OTT would be ALPHA until they retired to a pasture where someone has to take charge, that's just protocal. Maybe they even revert back to when they were weanlings, like mares becoming BM's. I wonder if the true ALPHAS go back to being ALPHAS, and the rest have to find their place again.
It would also be neat to know if a passive weanling, that ended up a great winner, that they changed and became an ALPHA after retirement? I bet not many owner's get to bring home and keep the winners that they create (maybe they are sold for profit), and actually even bother to discover what I'm talking about, yeah I bet some do while sitting on their back porches sipping something cold, shooting the breeze with a buddy
I think you are looking at it a little too simplistically. In larger herds, especially if horses come and go periodically (breeding, racing, otherwise) the pecking order is neither rigid nor linear. You should think of it more in terms of dominance relationships rather than a pecking order. For example, in a pecking order you know that if a>b and b>c then a>c. If you think dominance relationships then if a>b and b>c, you don't limit any possibilities and c can be >a. It can be quite amusing to watch 3 or 4 horses endlessly chase each other around a feeder. It can also change as the horses get older so that an older mare may not be able to reassert her dominance when she returns if a young mare starts feeling her oats while the older mare is gone.
At the end of the day running ability trumps everything else. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that I read Secretariat was very submissive as a foal. Talent triumphs.
I can see your point again. In bigger herds too, off branch smaller "clicks" that form groups that arrange significant to, "your gonna eat last" . I have also seen the older alphas give it up to younger take charge ladys, but seems that older alpha stays under the wing of the new alpha mare..... almost as a respectful protective response.
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vallygirl927
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My stud colt is on the bottom of the totum poll. Sometimes this irritates me and makes me think he won't be a good racehorse at all....but othertimes I'm thankful because he's still a stud colt and I've read that stud colts that are dominated by other horses in a herd setting are easier to handle and less likely to try to dominate their handlers. So far, this has played out true. Of course, I think a lot of that is determined by the mares temperment and how well they are imprinted when they are foals. Sometimes it just shocks me how well behaved he is for a 19 month old stud colt though.
Of course, I do think that a leader is more likely to want to take the lead when all the other horses are behind. I can imagine that a follower would stop running in the lead when he realized he was all alone in front. But who know!!!
Of course, I do think that a leader is more likely to want to take the lead when all the other horses are behind. I can imagine that a follower would stop running in the lead when he realized he was all alone in front. But who know!!!
Toccet02 wrote:LB wrote:Two top, top mares were retired to Lane's End a couple of years ago (I wish I could remember their names!) Because they arrived around the same time, they were turned out together to keep each company. One immediately became the dominant mare: she instigated everything. The second mare was the follower; in the pasture she never took the lead.
Both were G1 winners.
was that Oija Board and Film Maker?
That sounds about right. Thanks, Toccet.
