breeding advice

[Vicbrenan]

Just looking for some opinions on what type of line would be a good one to get into for my mare.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/vicbrenan

I have lots of experience on the training side of things... but the breeding and bloodline side of things is pretty new. Im looking to breed my mare for racing.

I was looking at Clifton Park, but im not sure if perhaps they have too similiar a lines.

[karenkarenn]

Hello Vicbrenan
What are you looking to produce with your mare? What are you goals?
Karen

[Jane]

Looks like this mare has had quite a few chances already, bred to Whiskey Wisdom, Alydeed, Bold n Flashy, Kiridashi... none of them ended up turning a profit. I'm sure she is a lovely mare but maybe just not that well suited to produce racehorses.

[Vicbrenan]

Well, seeing as I know the story of all the babies she had prior, unfortunately most had incidents which hindered them... I know the owner quite well who bred these foals... So I will be the judge of what happened.

Itsnotenough was raced with fractures in her front leg which weren;t known until they changed trainers... The initial trainer failed to disclose what happened to her (to this day we dont know for sure) but she had quite a number or scars too... Thing is... She wasn't visually off! But clearly with her breeding that is what held her back.

I wanted to breed her back to Whiskey Wisdom, but he is in Manitoba now so obviously too far for live cover.

I'd appreciate opinions on bloodlines that may be good for her for racing. Im an owner/trainer looking to start out... We dont all start out at the top

[karenkarenn]

Vicbrenan
Do you know what the progeny did? Long distance turf or sprinting?
Are you going to use the same trainer??

[griff]

where are you?

And what is your fee range?

griff

[Vicbrenan]

Im in Ontario... Im not sure how much I will spend... It all depends. Not to sound cheap, but since this is my first breeding i'd rather try and stay under $5000.00, I know Ontario has lots in the price range.

Depending on the protential of the horse I will look at other trainers, I have a contact in Fort Erie who I like, and a contact at Woodbine who I dont like, but Woodbine is closer.

[Hold Your Peace]

Ascot Knight mares have done well with several different Mr. Prospector line stallions.

GSW Greeley's Galaxy by the Mr. Prospector grandson Mr. Greeley, G.1 SW Divine Park by the Mr. Prospector stallion Chester House, two Champions in India by the Mr. Prospector stallion Placerville, Canadian graded stakes winner Matt's Broken Vow by Mr. Prospector's great grandson Broken Vow, etc;

So if you're going to breed her, your thought of a Mr. Prospector line stallion like Clifton Park seems like a good one.

I don't know why you were worried about Clifton Park's pedigree being "too similar" to your mare. I see very little similarity in those two horse's pedigrees.

See a hypothetical here:

http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=ORDER_AND_CONFIRM&sire_reference_number=7188350&dam_reference_number=4010499&color=+&sex=+&hypo_foaling_year=&breeder=&nicking_stats_indicator=Y&x=37&y=11

With that said, as someone tried to suggest, I'd wonder about breeding this particular mare.

The mare's previous owners have a hard luck story to explain why all FIVE of her foals of racing age have failed to show anything much on the racecourse?

And while it does seem like the Whiskey Whisdom foal you mentioned had an excuse, it would be a mistake to think that a foal by a decent stallion HAD to have an excuse to have not been a success as that flies in the face of what we see all the time where million dollar foals with the best pedigrees one could dream of can't run for hell. (e.g. I see a Giant's Causeway filly out of a Seeking The Gold mare, whose second dam is Grade I winner Dispute - from one of the best families in the stud book- entered for $30,000 Maiden Claiming Saturday at Gulfstream despite having sold as a yearling for $220,000). The point being that even with no issues the Whiskey Whisdom foal may not have been much of a runner. This mare and her family haven't produced very much at all in the way of decent runners so for one to become a good runner would be the exception rather than the rule.

Good luck to you though.

[Vicbrenan]

Thanks! I really only know the details of the last 3 foals she had... I thought her second foal (whose name I cant remember, except the barn name lord) had done well?

Regardless... If I dont get a good racehorse, I would have a nice eventer in the end. All of her foals that I saw had a great attitude, I dont understand why they didnt do better.

[Jane]

Justlord by Alydeed, raced 7 times, never hit the board
Hastings Princess, raced 9 times, never hit the board
Itsnotenough by Whiskey Wisdom, raced 4 times, never hit the board
Hastings County by Kiridashi raced 10 times, won 2 and earned 21,000

[Hold Your Peace]

Her full produce record:

2001 Justlord,Dk B/,g,Alydeed (unplaced in 7 starts over 2 seasons earning just $1,969)

2002 Hastings Princess,Dk B/,f,Bold N' Flashy (unplaced in 9 starts over 2 seasons earning just $3,618)

2003 Hastings County,B,c,Kiridashi (1 win and 1 third in three starts over 1 season of racing, but he must have been competing at a very low level as he only earned $8,140)

2004 Its Notenought,,f,Whiskey Wisdom (unplaced in 4 starts over 1 season of racing earning just $1,506)

2005 No Foal

2006 Bratfrommistyayre,Dkbbr,c,Kinshasa (Unraced)

2007 No Foal

2008 No Foal

Just to give people some perspective:

Even on a $5,000 stud fee it's going to cost about $10,000 (stud fee plus mare upkeep while she's carrying the foal etc;) to get a foal on the ground, another $25,000 to get the foal to the racetrack, and then probably $40,000 per season of racing so even this mares best runner (who earned less than $9,000) is a huge loss since you would of had around $75,000 invested in it.

If you'd bred and kept every one of this mares foals and raced them yourself you'd be hundreds of thousands of dollars in the hole.

[Vicbrenan]

Thanks for the records... Brat has fractures in both hind legs coming from his pre-track trainer! Thats all I will say about that. I know the soundness and issues of Notty and The count too... I dont know much about Lord or Princess, but I dont think you can judge product from 2 horses?

Regardless of how much people down talk my horse, she will be getting bred. Im not looking for the next Kentucky Derby winner, and I have plenty of knowledge about cost and training... I also know that many horses get injured and are raced anyways, not all have good trainers, not everything is of the fault of the horse.

Alot of a racehorse has to do with training and care, its not just about the bloodlines.

I am simply looking for info on how to improve my horses bloodline through breeding... Ascot Knight is a decent line.

If mares popped out winners as easily as that, we'd have alot more rich people and alot less people in debt.

[K~2]

Thanks! I really only know the details of the last 3 foals she had... I thought her second foal (whose name I cant remember, except the barn name lord) had done well?

Regardless... If I dont get a good racehorse, I would have a nice eventer in the end. All of her foals that I saw had a great attitude, I dont understand why they didnt do better.

I googled your mare's name and found your? training blog online with pictures of her eventing.

I think you would do better breeding a foal for eventing rather than racing with this mare. We have one of the best TB stallions for sport standing in Ontario - A Fine Romance

[hpkingjr]

Adena moved Silent Name to Canada. Danzig inbreeding has worked before.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php? ... lor=000000

[Vicbrenan]

Thanks! I really only know the details of the last 3 foals she had... I thought her second foal (whose name I cant remember, except the barn name lord) had done well?

Regardless... If I dont get a good racehorse, I would have a nice eventer in the end. All of her foals that I saw had a great attitude, I dont understand why they didnt do better.

I googled your mare's name and found your? training blog online with pictures of her eventing.

I think you would do better breeding a foal for eventing rather than racing with this mare. We have one of the best TB stallions for sport standing in Ontario - A Fine Romance

Thanks! I would like to try and get a racing line first though.... I have lost interest in eventing at the moment, but im sure I will go back to it again one day. Ascot knight babies are known for their eventing talent... I cant remember, but one of the horse of the year awards went to an AK baby.

Vic is a good eventer though, very talented for xc. Ultimately I did purchase her for breeding though. If I had gotten her when she was younger I think she would have made it quite high in eventing, her age and track quirks slow things down though.