Has anyone come across any 4 x 4 to Cormorant? Thoughts?
Thanks in advance.
Cormorant
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn, Diane
Inbreeding Comorant
Sorry, not much out there:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php? ... _font=1&l=
http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php? ... _font=1&l=
I'm looking at a mare to cross to him for a season we won for next year. Since we do not own anything it's a great opportunity to find a great match. There are things I absolutely want in a mare pedigree wise.
He is considered RF because of Swoon's Tune, but the resulting foal using this mare would not have 4 x 5, 5 x 5 to her. Another mare I am trying to find to look at would produce a foal who is 4 x 5 to Swoon's Tune but not through Cormorant on the dam's side.
There's lots of good/bad to using descendants of Ribot, ie, Pleasant Colony, Graustark, but not too much when it comes to Cormorant.
He is considered RF because of Swoon's Tune, but the resulting foal using this mare would not have 4 x 5, 5 x 5 to her. Another mare I am trying to find to look at would produce a foal who is 4 x 5 to Swoon's Tune but not through Cormorant on the dam's side.
There's lots of good/bad to using descendants of Ribot, ie, Pleasant Colony, Graustark, but not too much when it comes to Cormorant.
It seems to be a later maturing line which goes against what most breeders want nowadays. By looking at Cormorant who was more precocious then most in that line, I wonder if 4 x 4 would add more precocity then looking at a Pleasant Colony line mare to cross to him. I do suspect (although I have not seen enough horses to offer a definitive opinion) that they tend do be larger bodied, tall horses that take extra time to mature.
We are not in a rush to find a mare, but if the right one comes along now we would look to move accordingly.
We are not in a rush to find a mare, but if the right one comes along now we would look to move accordingly.
Temper Temper
My best guess would be the temperment he passed on to his foals.
Retired from racing, Ribot then had an exceptionally successful career at stud. Under a one-year contract, he first stood at Lord Derby's stud in England before being sent to the United States in a deal of such significance that on June 1, 1959 Sports Illustrated did a feature article on it titled The Man, The Horse And The Deal That Made History.
Fiery on the racetrack, Ribot had a dangerous temperament. A good-sized, but not overly large horse, he had to be handled by the strongest stallion groom at Darby Dan Farm in Lexington, Kentucky where he stood at stud. In his stall Ribot was in the habit of putting his front feet on the upper edge of the wooden panelling so that he could reach and chew on a high wooden beam. While in his paddock he was so territorial that he would not tolerate the sight of other stallions. Once he even refused to calm down until a herd of cows were moved over a hill and out of his vision.
He was leading sire in Great Britain and Ireland on three occasions (1963, 1967 and 1968). His progeny included the full brothers Ribocco and Ribero, both winners of the Irish Derby and St. Leger; Ragusa winner of the Irish Derby, St. Leger, King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Stakes and Eclipse Stakes; Molvedo and Prince Royal, both winners of the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe; Tom Rolfe winner of the Preakness Stakes; Arts and Letters winner of the Belmont Stakes and Graustark. Ribot's son His Majesty sired the Kentucky Derby and Preakness Stakes winner Pleasant Colony and his great grandson Alleged, by Tom Rolfe's son Hoist The Flag, emulated him by winning the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe in succssive years (1977 and 1978).
Originally Ribot was leased by Darby Dan to stand in the United States for five years only. After Ribot's temper surfaced no insurance company would offer a policy to cover shipping the stallion back to Europe. A new contract was worked out and Ribot remained in the United States until his death. He is buried in the equine cemetery at Darby Dan, near his sons Graustark and His Majesty.
and
TERRIBLE TEMPER
John Galbreath's agreement with Italian Marchese Mario Incisa to lease Ribot, the remarkably successful European stallion whose get finished second and third in the Kentucky Derby last spring and one-two in the Preakness, for another three to five years of service in the U.S. is causing angry repercussions in Italy. Desmond McGowan, Rome correspondent of The Morning Telegraph, wrote last week, "The loss of Ribot has done incalculable harm to breeding in Italy.... European breeders have been led up the garden path and they can derive little satisfaction in the fact that all expenses will be paid if they still wish their mares to visit Ribot in Kentucky.... Galbreath only made the offer as a sop to Incisa's conscience."
McGowan added that "All this talk about Ribot having turned vicious is a lot of nonsense." But Galbreath's reason for keeping Ribot in the U.S. is precisely that—he says the horse is too dangerous to ship. Olin Gentry, Galbreath's farm manager, agrees completely, and all observers here admit that Ribot has always been an unruly stallion, although he was perfectly well behaved on the racecourse. Ribot has been known to have some pretty hairy hysterics in something so familiar as a stable stall.
"A man would be a fool to get in a plane with Ribot," Gentry said last August. "You'd have to kill the horse if anything went wrong."
and
The great champion Ribot, was an amenable enough a character during his years of racing - but his disposition deteriorated at stud. His attendant succinctly described his hazard to the unwary: "Ribot" he said, "would climb a tree."
Do you know what you get when you cross Ribot with Lassie?
A horse that will chew your arm off and then run for help.
Retired from racing, Ribot then had an exceptionally successful career at stud. Under a one-year contract, he first stood at Lord Derby's stud in England before being sent to the United States in a deal of such significance that on June 1, 1959 Sports Illustrated did a feature article on it titled The Man, The Horse And The Deal That Made History.
Fiery on the racetrack, Ribot had a dangerous temperament. A good-sized, but not overly large horse, he had to be handled by the strongest stallion groom at Darby Dan Farm in Lexington, Kentucky where he stood at stud. In his stall Ribot was in the habit of putting his front feet on the upper edge of the wooden panelling so that he could reach and chew on a high wooden beam. While in his paddock he was so territorial that he would not tolerate the sight of other stallions. Once he even refused to calm down until a herd of cows were moved over a hill and out of his vision.
He was leading sire in Great Britain and Ireland on three occasions (1963, 1967 and 1968). His progeny included the full brothers Ribocco and Ribero, both winners of the Irish Derby and St. Leger; Ragusa winner of the Irish Derby, St. Leger, King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Stakes and Eclipse Stakes; Molvedo and Prince Royal, both winners of the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe; Tom Rolfe winner of the Preakness Stakes; Arts and Letters winner of the Belmont Stakes and Graustark. Ribot's son His Majesty sired the Kentucky Derby and Preakness Stakes winner Pleasant Colony and his great grandson Alleged, by Tom Rolfe's son Hoist The Flag, emulated him by winning the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe in succssive years (1977 and 1978).
Originally Ribot was leased by Darby Dan to stand in the United States for five years only. After Ribot's temper surfaced no insurance company would offer a policy to cover shipping the stallion back to Europe. A new contract was worked out and Ribot remained in the United States until his death. He is buried in the equine cemetery at Darby Dan, near his sons Graustark and His Majesty.
and
TERRIBLE TEMPER
John Galbreath's agreement with Italian Marchese Mario Incisa to lease Ribot, the remarkably successful European stallion whose get finished second and third in the Kentucky Derby last spring and one-two in the Preakness, for another three to five years of service in the U.S. is causing angry repercussions in Italy. Desmond McGowan, Rome correspondent of The Morning Telegraph, wrote last week, "The loss of Ribot has done incalculable harm to breeding in Italy.... European breeders have been led up the garden path and they can derive little satisfaction in the fact that all expenses will be paid if they still wish their mares to visit Ribot in Kentucky.... Galbreath only made the offer as a sop to Incisa's conscience."
McGowan added that "All this talk about Ribot having turned vicious is a lot of nonsense." But Galbreath's reason for keeping Ribot in the U.S. is precisely that—he says the horse is too dangerous to ship. Olin Gentry, Galbreath's farm manager, agrees completely, and all observers here admit that Ribot has always been an unruly stallion, although he was perfectly well behaved on the racecourse. Ribot has been known to have some pretty hairy hysterics in something so familiar as a stable stall.
"A man would be a fool to get in a plane with Ribot," Gentry said last August. "You'd have to kill the horse if anything went wrong."
and
The great champion Ribot, was an amenable enough a character during his years of racing - but his disposition deteriorated at stud. His attendant succinctly described his hazard to the unwary: "Ribot" he said, "would climb a tree."
Do you know what you get when you cross Ribot with Lassie?
A horse that will chew your arm off and then run for help.
Thank you for sharing that!
There is a wonderful article on him here....
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ ... /index.htm
Quoting the most amusing comment..
Among Ribot's 15 great-great-great grand parents, six are St. Simon's sons and one is St. Simon's grandson.
I forced myself to get away from the vault, too much I wanted to read, it's kind of like going to look at Barbara Livingston's wonderful pictures, the more you see the more time you want to spend looking.
It seems they found he had a brain tumor and that might have been why he would try to hang himself in his stall and behave as he did. My take, breeding to race, I would gladly take one with a bad temper who could run all day over a puppy dog who could not.
There is a wonderful article on him here....
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ ... /index.htm
Quoting the most amusing comment..
Among Ribot's 15 great-great-great grand parents, six are St. Simon's sons and one is St. Simon's grandson.
I forced myself to get away from the vault, too much I wanted to read, it's kind of like going to look at Barbara Livingston's wonderful pictures, the more you see the more time you want to spend looking.
It seems they found he had a brain tumor and that might have been why he would try to hang himself in his stall and behave as he did. My take, breeding to race, I would gladly take one with a bad temper who could run all day over a puppy dog who could not.
Ribot has always been one of my heros, If I had had the means, I would have bred His Majesty mares to Graustark and Graustark mares to His Majesty. Temperment can be bred out or into a horse, but the question would be to me how would it effect the quality of the offspring. Breeding back to a 4X4 is breeding 4th cousins and does not have much chance of getting those characteristics you want unless those characteristics come down through or are present in the close-ups
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Try it you will like it.
Try it you will like it.
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Strategic Maneuver
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Great article on Ribot and explains alot. I had a Filiberto mare I bred to Nicholas when he first went to stud. The resulting filly was the nastiest critter I have ever dealt with. Used to have to lay her out just to trim her feet. With her daughters, I've learned to be more careful when trying to bred back to Ribot. No Danzig and no Storm Cat.
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Strategic Maneuver
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Roger wrote:Ribot has always been one of my heros, If I had had the means, I would have bred His Majesty mares to Graustark and Graustark mares to His Majesty. Temperment can be bred out or into a horse, but the question would be to me how would it effect the quality of the offspring. Breeding back to a 4X4 is breeding 4th cousins and does not have much chance of getting those characteristics you want unless those characteristics come down through or are present in the close-ups
How do you breed temperment in or out. Over the years, I've noticed my mares tend to throw their temperment to their fillies and sometimes to their colts but not as often.