he doesn't want to sleep on the couch.karenkarenn wrote:My hubby is routing for Zen- that doesnt make him a female. And NO he's not the only male out there that favors Zen.
Thats just way out of the ballpark there BDW. Are you getting tired??
THE HORSE OF THE YEAR DEBATE
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bdw0617
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Georgerz
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I invite everyone to read this article, with an open mind. I believe that it gives very strong arguments on why Zenyatta is not the strongest candidate for 2009 HOY:
http://thehomestretch.yuku.com/topic/45 ... /1/?page=1
http://thehomestretch.yuku.com/topic/45 ... /1/?page=1
This part I can somewhat agree with: "If easily besting this field while also winning the Derby and performing at a top level all year at multiple venues, distances and surfaces was not enough for Unbridled, then giving the award to Zenyatta would be nothing short of criminal. Worse, it arbitrarily dismisses the long-standing precedent that the Horse of the Year title is for accomplishments achieved throughout the year. A Zenyatta win tells the world that the BC Classic is now the only race that counts, which is odd because the Classic distance of 10 furlongs is becoming less competitive year by year." but the rest is a little beyond me. Comparing a horse of yesteryear to todays horses is a slippery slope.
I prefer the straight forward:
November 24, 2009, the Daily Racing Form, by Dan Illman
I love Zenyatta. Ever since the magnificent mare burst onto the national scene in the Apple Blossom Handicap at Oaklawn Park last season, I've feted her with superlatives.
"She's the Equine Orchid."
"She's the Toast of the Coast."
"She's the Reflection of Perfection."
"She's the Amazing Amazon."
Feel free to add "future first ballot Hall of Famer." Zenyatta is all of those things and more.
But, she's not Horse of the Year.
Rachel Alexandra is the Horse of the Year for 2009.
Zenyatta's Eclipse supporters will point to sporting analogies to back up her case. What if the New England Patriots go 16-0, but fail to show up in the Super Bowl? They're not considered world champions.
It's an interesting point, but horse racing and football are completely different animals. In football, it's the Super Bowl that is the goal of every team since the beginning of preseason. At the end of the day, nothing else really matters. In our sport, there are many goals. The Dubai World Cup, the Triple Crown series, the Breeders' Cup, just to name a few.
Surely, we have to look at a horse's overall body of work, from January to December, before we render our final decision. Is the Most Valuable Player in the Super Bowl necessarily the best player on the gridiron that season? Of course not. That takes nothing away from his performance that day, but the seasonal MVP is decided for excellence over a whole year. Zenyatta was more than excellent this year, no doubt about it, but Rachel Alexandra trumps her.
Rachel had an unprecedented campaign. In all likelihood, we'll never see a 3-year-old filly raced so aggressively ever again. Like Zenyatta, she was undefeated this season, and like Zenyatta, she stepped out of her division to achieve her greatest successes. Only, Rachel did so on three occasions, sandwiching her Preakness, Haskell, and Woodward wins with amazing margins of victory in two of the definitive races of her division, the Kentucky Oaks and Mother Goose.
There really isn't a loser in the Rachel-Zenyatta debate. We've been so blessed to have them in our lives this year. But peruse the past performances once again before you've come to a conclusion. I'm fairly sure that after you do so, you'll find there is really only one Horse of 2009. That horse is Rachel Alexandra.
or:
November 20, 2009, the Daily Racing Form
Marcus Hersh
Remember that 2006 press conference with Dennis Green, then coach of the Arizona Cardinals, after the Cardinals blew a 20-point lead to the Bears? "They're what we thought they were!" thundered Green, memorably.
Well, I say, "She was what I thought she was!" I don't live in California. I saw Zenyatta's narrow wins over inferior competition, her low speed figures, yet I fully expected Zenyatta would win the Breeders' Cup Classic. Zenyatta is one of the best horses in many, many years. Santa Anita is her favorite synthetic track. For a change, there would be no false pace. So, Zenyatta went out and beat Gio Ponti, a wonderful turf horse who had finished fifth in a modest edition of the Grade 2 Strub Stakes when last seen on synthetic. Rip Van Winkle? Dud. Einstein? Flop. Summer Bird? Not the same as on dirt.
Zenyatta was what I thought she was.
The Classic was no game-changer in my Horse of the Year calculation. Before the race, Rachel Alexandra still sported the more comprehensive campaign. Yeah, I felt the tingling when Zenyatta made that move, swept past everyone. Campaign vs. campaign, the win obviously moved Zenyatta closer to Rachel.
But not close enough. Rachel Alexandra was brilliant every time she raced. Every time: At four distances, seven racetracks, one turn and two, in slop and on fast dirt. Beating males three times. Beating the best older dirt male in the country, Macho Again, when everything was against her.
Two extraordinary racehorses. One Horse of the Year vote: Rachel Alexandra.
These say it better than I.
I prefer the straight forward:
November 24, 2009, the Daily Racing Form, by Dan Illman
I love Zenyatta. Ever since the magnificent mare burst onto the national scene in the Apple Blossom Handicap at Oaklawn Park last season, I've feted her with superlatives.
"She's the Equine Orchid."
"She's the Toast of the Coast."
"She's the Reflection of Perfection."
"She's the Amazing Amazon."
Feel free to add "future first ballot Hall of Famer." Zenyatta is all of those things and more.
But, she's not Horse of the Year.
Rachel Alexandra is the Horse of the Year for 2009.
Zenyatta's Eclipse supporters will point to sporting analogies to back up her case. What if the New England Patriots go 16-0, but fail to show up in the Super Bowl? They're not considered world champions.
It's an interesting point, but horse racing and football are completely different animals. In football, it's the Super Bowl that is the goal of every team since the beginning of preseason. At the end of the day, nothing else really matters. In our sport, there are many goals. The Dubai World Cup, the Triple Crown series, the Breeders' Cup, just to name a few.
Surely, we have to look at a horse's overall body of work, from January to December, before we render our final decision. Is the Most Valuable Player in the Super Bowl necessarily the best player on the gridiron that season? Of course not. That takes nothing away from his performance that day, but the seasonal MVP is decided for excellence over a whole year. Zenyatta was more than excellent this year, no doubt about it, but Rachel Alexandra trumps her.
Rachel had an unprecedented campaign. In all likelihood, we'll never see a 3-year-old filly raced so aggressively ever again. Like Zenyatta, she was undefeated this season, and like Zenyatta, she stepped out of her division to achieve her greatest successes. Only, Rachel did so on three occasions, sandwiching her Preakness, Haskell, and Woodward wins with amazing margins of victory in two of the definitive races of her division, the Kentucky Oaks and Mother Goose.
There really isn't a loser in the Rachel-Zenyatta debate. We've been so blessed to have them in our lives this year. But peruse the past performances once again before you've come to a conclusion. I'm fairly sure that after you do so, you'll find there is really only one Horse of 2009. That horse is Rachel Alexandra.
or:
November 20, 2009, the Daily Racing Form
Marcus Hersh
Remember that 2006 press conference with Dennis Green, then coach of the Arizona Cardinals, after the Cardinals blew a 20-point lead to the Bears? "They're what we thought they were!" thundered Green, memorably.
Well, I say, "She was what I thought she was!" I don't live in California. I saw Zenyatta's narrow wins over inferior competition, her low speed figures, yet I fully expected Zenyatta would win the Breeders' Cup Classic. Zenyatta is one of the best horses in many, many years. Santa Anita is her favorite synthetic track. For a change, there would be no false pace. So, Zenyatta went out and beat Gio Ponti, a wonderful turf horse who had finished fifth in a modest edition of the Grade 2 Strub Stakes when last seen on synthetic. Rip Van Winkle? Dud. Einstein? Flop. Summer Bird? Not the same as on dirt.
Zenyatta was what I thought she was.
The Classic was no game-changer in my Horse of the Year calculation. Before the race, Rachel Alexandra still sported the more comprehensive campaign. Yeah, I felt the tingling when Zenyatta made that move, swept past everyone. Campaign vs. campaign, the win obviously moved Zenyatta closer to Rachel.
But not close enough. Rachel Alexandra was brilliant every time she raced. Every time: At four distances, seven racetracks, one turn and two, in slop and on fast dirt. Beating males three times. Beating the best older dirt male in the country, Macho Again, when everything was against her.
Two extraordinary racehorses. One Horse of the Year vote: Rachel Alexandra.
These say it better than I.
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wangkw
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Quote : kARENKAREN
My hubby is routing for Zen- that doesnt make him a female. And NO he's not the only male out there that favors Zen.
Thats just way out of the ballpark there BDW. Are you getting tired??
Zen sounds familiar..a mistaken identity without u knowing ? Zhen, Zean.. ?
My hubby is routing for Zen- that doesnt make him a female. And NO he's not the only male out there that favors Zen.
Thats just way out of the ballpark there BDW. Are you getting tired??
Zen sounds familiar..a mistaken identity without u knowing ? Zhen, Zean.. ?
Our Greatest Glory Is Not In Never Falling But In Rising Everytime We Fall
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karenkarenn
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Now thats a tough poll, cause I love alot of the fillies and mares.
I like the name Zen- nice ring to to it.
Dray- i think what really woke me up was what you said about Zen camp waiting until may. Then it dawned on me that R.A. hasnt finished the year and R.A. camp is waiting until the spring too.
BDW- I enjoy the humor though. But I think he likes the couch now because of football on. Ha!
BUT I think if Jess Jackson starts to buy more developed horses like he has been doing in the past, he'll start to put more and more developed super stars out for us to see. Curlin was owned by someone else, and so was R.A. they were winners before he became involved. He'll buy more winners.
I like the name Zen- nice ring to to it.
Dray- i think what really woke me up was what you said about Zen camp waiting until may. Then it dawned on me that R.A. hasnt finished the year and R.A. camp is waiting until the spring too.
BDW- I enjoy the humor though. But I think he likes the couch now because of football on. Ha!
BUT I think if Jess Jackson starts to buy more developed horses like he has been doing in the past, he'll start to put more and more developed super stars out for us to see. Curlin was owned by someone else, and so was R.A. they were winners before he became involved. He'll buy more winners.
karenkarenn wrote:Dray- i think what really woke me up was what you said about Zen camp waiting until may. Then it dawned on me that R.A. hasnt finished the year and R.A. camp is waiting until the spring too.
I have no idea what RA is going to do, but she had an 8 race campaign before the break! Nothing ever good enough for the Zenyatta folks (except of course the one race for Zenyatta, THAT seems to be "good enough"). Hey, if Zenyatta is any indication, I ask you: why shouldn't RA wait till September? October? She only needs to win one race to be crowned HOY according to Rachel detractors. Speaking of which: I know you took me to task for my remarks about Zenyatta, I just thought you would like to know about the new thread: "Another grade D softie that Rachel beat humiliated @ 2-to-5". Since you were so up n' arms about my opinion, I thought you might like weigh in with your indignation.
By the way, there are dirt horses that tried the synthetics in the Breeders Cup Classic. look at what happened to Girolamo, Regal Ransom and the others. RA could have had issues with the surface, we'll never know. I wish she went anyway... but to take her to task after an 8 race campaign in one year? I look forward to your tirade and anger regarding the mud scratch by Zenyatta after just a 4 race easy campaign.
dray33 wrote:Speaking of which: I know you took me to task for my remarks about Zenyatta, I just thought you would like to know about the new thread: "Another grade D softie that Rachel beat humiliated @ 2-to-5". Since you were so up n' arms about my opinion, I thought you might like weigh in with your indignation.
My "indignation" stems not from the original poster's ridiculous assertions, on two separate threads, but at your being taken in and stooping to that level of mudslinging. I was just surprised, that's all. The OP's intent seemed obvious (to me) to incite a raucus emotional debate and he certainly succeeded. A debate on HOY is certainly well-founded and pertinent to a discussion board such as this. To denigrate either horse when both were so magnificent shows a lack of debating skills.
docjocoy wrote:My "indignation" stems not from the original poster's ridiculous assertions, on two separate threads, but at your being taken in and stooping to that level of mudslinging.
Know then that I am not beyond dropping to the mud if that's where the fight is. You can "indignate" all ya want. I am passionate about both horses, and I didn't feel like sitting idly by while one was maligned. Had a hankerin' for some fact, realism, and honesty, even if that disappoints you. And honestly, I am sick of all the parades, the race renaming, the dirty politicking that is being shoved down our throats by the people who support Zenyatta. And I'm not talking about the owners or the horse, either. I am disappointed too... maybe a better focus is the guy with the lighter fluid and match. I feel like it's okay to say anything against Rachel Alexandra, and not a word is spoken... but there is a visceral reaction to a single utterance of counter-opinion to Zenyatta for HOY. Tell me, why wouldn't I? Amazing. I simply don't care to let the lies go unanswered, is all.
dray33 wrote:Know then that I am not beyond dropping to the mud if that's where the fight is. I am passionate about both horses, and I didn't feel like sitting idly by while one was maligned. I simply don't care to let the lies go unanswered, is all.
One more word, then I am done. Your points above are what a spirited debate is all about. Take the opposition to task. Refute the lies. Get dirty,
enjoy making a zinging counter attack. But you miss the point in an attack on the horse itself. When you say "Zinthetics" (which I admit I coined but was inspired by you) or Zenzacta that doesn't further the argument. I thought all the put-downs of Rachel were stupid in the argument but to counter with a put-down of Zenyatta just made it worse, because then others jumped in and started on about how each horse couldn't beat a mule on a fast track with a half mile lead.
The debate is fine but the put-downs of two wonderful horses is disturbing.
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wangkw
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Every great must pass this test...at least scores a couple of competitive races on international scale...In this regards..regretably, both candidates
failed..btw the 2 RA fared the worse..and Zen is qualified barely..thanks to her solitary effort..strictly speaking..this is the systemic "fault" of US
runners in general...and ladies in particular..you know what I mean if you compare them overseas..Ouija Board, Goldikova, Vodka just to name a
few...etc.
Nevertheless..in US these 2 are 2009 sensation...and will take a while to see the 3rd..problem now ..only 1 will get the title...a bit of luck needed.
failed..btw the 2 RA fared the worse..and Zen is qualified barely..thanks to her solitary effort..strictly speaking..this is the systemic "fault" of US
runners in general...and ladies in particular..you know what I mean if you compare them overseas..Ouija Board, Goldikova, Vodka just to name a
few...etc.
Nevertheless..in US these 2 are 2009 sensation...and will take a while to see the 3rd..problem now ..only 1 will get the title...a bit of luck needed.
Last edited by wangkw on Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Our Greatest Glory Is Not In Never Falling But In Rising Everytime We Fall
docjocoy wrote:I thought all the put-downs of Rachel were stupid in the argument but to counter with a put-down of Zenyatta just made it worse, because then others jumped in and started on about how each horse couldn't beat a mule on a fast track with a half mile lead.
Gotcha, although it is tough to only discuss the merits of one horse while you're in a forum where the other side continually misdirects the truth. Sometimes, it becomes necessary to take the foundation out of their alterations of the facts by countering with fact "enhancement" of your own. I have that right. YOU on the other hand, have the right to be vocal about one side, or the other, or both. And it is my right to question why indignation comes leaping out of the gate immediately upon the counter-opinion of one horse, but never the other.
Maybe a better way to put that is: He wants to elevate his horse by tearing down the other. I take offense to that. With horses, as with people, I don't like when people feel bigger when they make others feel smaller. It's an early lesson we all taught our children: don't build yourself up by bullying someone else. So I ANSWER that call, usually, by doing it back. Petty? Sometimes. But effective because I do not like bully's.
hi dray33..hi docjocoy...hi wangkw
I gotta jump in here.
One point that I have absolutely positively no doubt about is that Zenyatta has the physical tools and level of ability, desire, tenacity, talent and gifts (if you will) that not only earned her an undefeated record but also the crowning jewel victory in the 2009 Breeders' Cup Classic-G1.
I believe Zenyatta's incredible gifts would also have bode well for her versus the Best Of The Best of ALL Time going a mile and a quarter (on dirt and/or synthetic surfaces/mixes); and I have no doubt she could have won versus the Best Of The Best ever...and I am 100% serious.
I do not in all honesty have that level of confidence in Rachel A...at least not yet. How could I, after all Rachel A still hasn't shown me she can handle a mile and a quarter versus any kind...much less Breeders' Cup Classic-G1 kind.
Be assured that's not intended to mean that I don't believe Rachel A's very special. Hey...she is, and I'm pulling for her, but I wanna see it, because I don't believe it...at least not yet.
Best to ya.
Respectfully
I gotta jump in here.
One point that I have absolutely positively no doubt about is that Zenyatta has the physical tools and level of ability, desire, tenacity, talent and gifts (if you will) that not only earned her an undefeated record but also the crowning jewel victory in the 2009 Breeders' Cup Classic-G1.
I believe Zenyatta's incredible gifts would also have bode well for her versus the Best Of The Best of ALL Time going a mile and a quarter (on dirt and/or synthetic surfaces/mixes); and I have no doubt she could have won versus the Best Of The Best ever...and I am 100% serious.
I do not in all honesty have that level of confidence in Rachel A...at least not yet. How could I, after all Rachel A still hasn't shown me she can handle a mile and a quarter versus any kind...much less Breeders' Cup Classic-G1 kind.
Be assured that's not intended to mean that I don't believe Rachel A's very special. Hey...she is, and I'm pulling for her, but I wanna see it, because I don't believe it...at least not yet.
Best to ya.
Respectfully