Kitalpha

[texas tea]

Anybody seen this stallion in person or know anybody who has bred to him? Like to hear some thoughts on him. Is his fee in line with today's market? Considering breeding my Shadeed/Relaunch or Private Terms/Lyphard mare to him.
texsa tea

[dublino]

taken from the page

http://www.thoroughbredreview.com/StallionWatch.htm

1. Kitalpha ($12,500 War Horse Place, KY) - Seriously? $12,500 for an unraced horse who's only credentials come from South Africa? Even if you took a zero off his current fee, it would still be too high. Kentucky smoke and mirrors at it's finest.

[texas tea]

I would like to hear from people who are personaly aware of the stallion, or who know people that are. Not interested in somebody's plagiarized statement from a different web site.
texas tea

[dublino]

Your welcome.

As I stated in my first reply to you, taken from the page.
How do you manage to get plagiarized from that?

Plagiarism, as defined in the 1995 Random House Compact Unabridged Dictionary, is the "use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work."

taken from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism

When did I state that it was my own work?

[wen8t]

kitapha is a tall stud, little narrow in the front end , pretty straight in the front , has a nice rear, long legs , we seen alot of his foals at the farm I was pretty impressed with them ,and jerry and dana are probaby the nicest people that i have ever met good luck .

[oliverstoned]

Kind of afraid to say anything here after the way you jumped on dublino who was kind enough to give you a link to the thoroughbredreview a very respected and who I feel are almost always accurate in their summaries of stallions. I know your looking for impressions of his physical but the fact remains while having a lovely pedigree, he is unraced and his stud credentials come from SA. I'd be more interested at 3500.

[kimberley mine]

Texas Tea--a clarification. His stud credentials are from Zimbabwe, NOT South Africa. Before he came here, he was serving mares in Zimbabwe and the vast majority of his offspring were racing in Zimbabwe.

All of his champions on the website are champions in Zimbabwe...this is the racing class equivalent of, say, Wyoming...you might have a good horse from there from time to time, but it's tiny and the restricted pool makes average horses look good. Also, it says on the War Horse Place website that his colts ran 1-2-3 in the "Country's (ZIMSAF) Triple Crown." They were running in the Zimbabwean triple crown, not South African, which is like comparing the panamanian triple crown to that in Argentina.

Buyer beware!

[madelyn]

I was going to come in with the information that kimberly mine has reported. In the current market, in my opinion, Kitalpha should be standing for $1500 or so. $12,500 is ridiculous.

[wen8t]

conscensus is kitalpha foals are far superior than the Mr Greeley foals, and trainers in South Africa said if you want to beat a kitalpha you have to have a kitalpha to beat them. Kitalpha yearling topped the sale in South Africa this past fall. I guess there 130 mare owners would beg the differ and he has already booked 70 mares this year. i would say there has to be something to the stallion if people are breeding to him . I've seen alot of baby's this year and I have to say the kitalpha's rank up therewith the best of them .

Goooo Kitalpha's see ya at the
winners circle!

[kimberley mine]

conscensus is kitalpha foals are far superior than the Mr Greeley foals, and trainers in South Africa said if you want to beat a kitalpha you have to have a kitalpha to beat them. Kitalpha yearling topped the sale in South Africa this past fall. I guess there 130 mare owners would beg the differ and he has already booked 70 mares this year. i would say there has to be something to the stallion if people are breeding to him . I've seen alot of baby's this year and I have to say the kitalpha's rank up therewith the best of them .
Goooo Kitalpha's see ya at the winners circle!

Wen8t and Texas Tea -

For the 2008-2009 season (ending 31 July 2009), Kitalpha was 35th on the South Africa general sires list with 1 959 600 South African Rand in progeny earnings of which 1 106 875 was win purses, 36 runners and 14 winners for 222 starts and 22 wins.

Tease that out a little bit more, and you find that Kitalpha was 35th in the Eastern Cape (definitely 3rd tier), 66th in Kwazulu-Natal (very good racing especially in winter), and 43rd in the Western Cape (excellent racing). That's not actually all that great, especially since his best rank was in the province with the cheapest racing.

In the central provinces, which includes the excellent racing in Gauteng and the much cheaper racing in Kimberley and Bloemfontein, he's 42nd, and that's where half of his prize money came from. Also in the central provinces he has about 525k in wins and about 470k in place money. I didn't include these tracks in the analysis above, since it's a mixup of several different levels of racing, whereas the KZN, WC, and EC racing are all of a consistent class. That said, a good chunk of the stallions ahead of him are either dead or overseas (e.g. Zabeel), that's not flattering.

(All of the above is from www.jockeyclubsa.co.za and/or the sportingpost.co.za sires list.)

If you look at the Thoroughbred Times stallion register, you'll see a lot of horses that say "MR 72" or "MR 80"--that's a measurement of class. Having most of his top runners in MR 72s is about like running an allowance at Calder...not bad, but nowhere near the top levels, either. He has three stakes winners in South Africa, none of whom are better than group 3 level, and the rest are all Zimbabwean horses (the average South African stakes horse would wipe the floor with them).

The top levels of South African racing are very, very good indeed--but Kitalpha isn't putting out horses who are winning at the top in SAf, let alone anywhere but Zimbabwe. Manshood punched his ticket to South Africa with Ipi Tombe in the Dubai Duty Free and Durban July. Kitalpha punched his ticket to the USA and a fee more than a decent used car with a few nice horses, a bunch of restricted stakes winners in sub-par company and a bunch of middling allowance-level horses.

And one more thing that really puts me on edge about his marketing: the Thoroughbred Times stallion register printable page, in which Kingmambo and Kitalpha are compared with respect to their first three crops (Kingmambo 1 champion, Kitalpha 3)--without saying it was three Zimbabwean champions, whereas Kingmambo's first champion was El Condor Pasa, quickly followed by Lemon Drop Kid and a host of other excellent horses. The way it is posed is extremely misleading.

If you want to use him, go ahead, but do educate yourself and learn just what he has put on the ground.

[oliverstoned]

Wow kimberly thats quite a post, lots of info. About those misleasding ads that Ive just kind of chuckled about, but I quess I forgot that some people newer to the business might actually buy into that. Can't remember a horses heart size ever being featured so prominently in an advertising campaign, it's kind of like you gotta buy into a xfactor cult....ala "the secret". Anyway the way I look at this guy is he's a son of Mr P out of a top top turf mare so I don't doubt he'll get a couple, most Mr. Ps do. I would also say he will get better mares here than Africa. You really have to look at him as a unraced middle aged first year sire. It's hard enough to make money breeding right now at his fee it's even more so.

[madelyn]

I've got a little story about that..

I hustled over to KeeNov for the last day, mostly to catch up with my good pal, Bobby, who is a fun sort, 20+ yrs experience working for consignors, and has a keen eye for a good horse. He was with a gal who is a Keeneland librarian, who had taken the time to stop in at her very first horse sale. Admitting she knew absolutely nothing about pedigrees, and horses in general, she was fascinated by the whole "show." A few moments later, a War Horse entrant came into the walk ring, accompanied by War Horse personnel sporting jackets with "Kitalpha" embroidered on the back. The librarian brightened up a lot and said, "ooh Kitalpha has a LARGE HEART!!" Proof that a persistent advertising campaign can register even with those who know absolutely nothing else. BTW she couldn't pronounce Kitalpha.

[xfactor fan]

And remember that they are marketing the large heart--so his colts will be --well maybe not duds--but they WILL NOT get the large heart. And only half his daughters will express the trait.

That is of course if you buy into the theory.

Anybody know why he didn't race?

[tinners way]

I was not able to pull up the 2009 report of mares bred, but if he already has 70 lined up for 2010 my hunch would be there is a lot of dealing to be done on him. If you really want to breed to him, you should be able to get a huge discount.

Concerning the large heart x-factor hit it perfectly, although to me the large heart doesn't mean anything unless it is a freak like Secretariat. For the most part a large heart horse may have a large heart, but it is very thin walled. Secretariats however, based on what has been written, was perfect in every sense.

Texas Tea I think for the most part the people on the forum are telling you what you don't want to believe. He is unraced, and has excelled in an environment that is not known to produce top quality racehorses. At $1,500 or less he may be a screaming deal, but if you have $12,500 to invest in a stud fee, and your mare deserves that type of stud, there are proven sires that would most likely be a much better investment, and produce a better horse.

[Fireslam]

Lets see, Kitalpha, $12,500, Northern Afleet $10,000, Holy Bull $10,000, City Zip $10,000, Pleasant Tap $10,000, Smoke Glacken $12,500, War Chant $12,500.....your call.