"Horses in racing condition do not need medications. Horses that need medications are not in racing condition."
"Thoroughbred trainers are addicted to medication for their horses... and most of them don't seem to understand how that addiction has changed and degraded their profession. They also do not seem to understand how it changes and degrades their horses."
If this kind of reasoning resonates with you, read John Sparkman's blog:
http://pedigreecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/ ... l#comments
Medication Vs. Condition
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Patuxet
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Medication Vs. Condition
"He is pure air and fire and the dull elements of earth and water never appear in him; he is indeed a horse ..." Wm. Shakespeare - Henry V
meds
Amen to this!
We are about to pull horses from a trainer who every time our horses race, he gives them seven injections of various things in the 16 days prior to racing, plus several non-injected substances.
So, vet bills for healthy horses run $500 per month, every month. All legal.
Yet, , we have had beaten favorites in the last four races.
Does it help? No. Is it even neutral? No.
It hurts their ability.
We are about to pull horses from a trainer who every time our horses race, he gives them seven injections of various things in the 16 days prior to racing, plus several non-injected substances.
So, vet bills for healthy horses run $500 per month, every month. All legal.
Yet, , we have had beaten favorites in the last four races.
Does it help? No. Is it even neutral? No.
It hurts their ability.
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wilf
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The claiming system and permissive medication simply enables trainers to abuse horses and get away with it legally. Overseas the rules are quite stringent and a prospective trainer must show a respectable body of experience before being granted a licence to train. Over here in North America it's a joke ,if some clown cannot write a licence test then he will get a licenced trainer to "saddle" for him/her to circumvent the process. In some states the stewards will grant an owner/trainer licence simply because the guy owns a horse. I never could understand that logic as it encourages abuse by inexperienced people of unfortunate animals. Add to that a few veterinarians somewhat short on integrity and you have problems.
Has John Sparkman ever run a training barn, done set lists, run hands down legs, take horses to the clinic, send horses in to the track?
I really want to hear from one of those guys that we should only train on hay, oats and water (as though that were ever the case)
I really want to hear from one of those guys that we should only train on hay, oats and water (as though that were ever the case)
Last edited by Sysonby on Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hold Your Peace
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Sysonby wrote:Has John Sparkman ever run a training barn, do set lists, run hands down legs, take horses to the clinic, send horses in to the track?
I really want to hear from one of those guys that we should only train on hay, oats and water (as though that were ever the case)
I know. I love this fallacy that years ago (before effective drug testing) that horses ran on hay oats and water. There's a reason the nickname for Heroin is "Horse".
Hold Your Peace wrote:
I know. I love this fallacy that years ago (before effective drug testing) that horses ran on hay oats and water. There's a reason the nickname for Heroin is "Horse".
With all deference to Mr Sparkman who I do not know, I find this argument put forward frequently by people who don't have the day to day responsibility for the high performance horse and really don't know what it takes to get a horse into the gate. And I don't mean paying bills which we all do too much of but running hands down legs, feeling for heat, nursing horses through injuries and plotting out the steps from A to B to wind up at C.
Interestingly enough, I read a thread recently on a pure sport horse forum about what therapeutic medications they used to get a horse to a dressage show. It was a pharmaceutical delight--bute, dex, banamine, "calmers", ace--all were cited by posters as being necessary aids to ship in and get a horse ready to trot down a centerline. No one saw any problems with this and there were at least 30 responses. Racing was never mentioned but I read it and thought wow. Incidentally that is pretty much my experience of being in show barns too.
Sitting at a computer or even being in the business hanging out in the front side, it is easy to have an imperfect view of the horses and their frailties. I remember an earnest young lady once approaching my trainer, indicating that she wanted to be a horse trainer some day herself. The difference was that she was going to be the kind of a trainer who sent them back to the farm when they even had a whisper of a physical problem. After she left, my trainer said with a smile "I hope she has a big farm."
Ouchies happen and I just don't understand someone who would deny a hard working racehorse some prudently administered NSAIDs.
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Patuxet
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John Sparkman has been the Bloodstock Editor for The Thoroughbred Times since 1994. For 15 years before that he was general manager of William du Pont III's Pillar Stud. At the Times he's been the resident pedigree and Thoroughbred history guru and is author of "Foundation Mares", a 460-page definitive work on American racing’s outstanding female families and how they shaped the breed.
I posed Sysonby's initial question to Mr. Sparkman: "Has John Sparkman ever run a training barn, do set lists, run hands down legs, take horses to the clinic, send horses into the track? I really want to hear from one of those guys that we sould only train on hay, oats and water (as though that were ever the case)." and asked him how he would answer that?
He replied: Basic answer to that would be "how do you know it won't work if you've never tried it?"
And, by the way, no, never worked at the racetrack, but did manage a substantial, successful racing stable with several trainers for many years and, yes, I know how racing barns work, and I know why. Also not so naive as to believe that it was EVER hay, oats and water. I've probably been around racehorses and training barns far longer than the commenter and know far more of the actual history.
The biggest problem with training insiders is inertia. No one can do it alone, and no one should be expected to do so. That is never what I would advocate. A single barn going hay, oats and water against the chemistry shops their competitors run would be suicide, and they all know it.
That simple fact is telling enough, and brings me right back to Dan Foster's point. "Horses in racing condition do not need medications. Horses that need medications are not in racing condition."
The sooner state racing commissions and organizations like the Breeders' Cup and NTRA act on that simple fact, the sooner racing--and the public's perception of it--will improve.
I posed Sysonby's initial question to Mr. Sparkman: "Has John Sparkman ever run a training barn, do set lists, run hands down legs, take horses to the clinic, send horses into the track? I really want to hear from one of those guys that we sould only train on hay, oats and water (as though that were ever the case)." and asked him how he would answer that?
He replied: Basic answer to that would be "how do you know it won't work if you've never tried it?"
And, by the way, no, never worked at the racetrack, but did manage a substantial, successful racing stable with several trainers for many years and, yes, I know how racing barns work, and I know why. Also not so naive as to believe that it was EVER hay, oats and water. I've probably been around racehorses and training barns far longer than the commenter and know far more of the actual history.
The biggest problem with training insiders is inertia. No one can do it alone, and no one should be expected to do so. That is never what I would advocate. A single barn going hay, oats and water against the chemistry shops their competitors run would be suicide, and they all know it.
That simple fact is telling enough, and brings me right back to Dan Foster's point. "Horses in racing condition do not need medications. Horses that need medications are not in racing condition."
The sooner state racing commissions and organizations like the Breeders' Cup and NTRA act on that simple fact, the sooner racing--and the public's perception of it--will improve.
"He is pure air and fire and the dull elements of earth and water never appear in him; he is indeed a horse ..." Wm. Shakespeare - Henry V
Horse, Big H, junk, mud, smack.......to name just a few slang terms for heroin. I've heard the claim before that horse for heroin is derived from drugging horses, but I find it hard to believe. Maybe someone can find confirmation somewhere that street junkies found out that racehorse trainers used heroin on their horses, and thought what a great nickname it would be for their drug of choice.
"Horses in racing condition do not need medications. Horses that need medications are not in racing condition."
I can't really go for this statement, simply because it's just too general. I don't, however, believe that horses from the era of many starts, and racing careers that spanned many years, were kept on the racetrack with the use of drugs. Clearly, those horses could feel their problems, and as a result, took care of themselves on the racetrack.
I've loved racehorses, and horse racing my entire life. I'm sure, if horrific breakdowns were as common when I was a kid, as they are now, I wouldn't have developed that love. Nowadays, though I own and train horses, I can barely watch a race without worrying about it. Can you imagine how casual observers must feel?
If people in racing insist that they must do what they do, horse racing will go from struggling to get owners in the game, as it does now, to gone.
"Horses in racing condition do not need medications. Horses that need medications are not in racing condition."
I can't really go for this statement, simply because it's just too general. I don't, however, believe that horses from the era of many starts, and racing careers that spanned many years, were kept on the racetrack with the use of drugs. Clearly, those horses could feel their problems, and as a result, took care of themselves on the racetrack.
I've loved racehorses, and horse racing my entire life. I'm sure, if horrific breakdowns were as common when I was a kid, as they are now, I wouldn't have developed that love. Nowadays, though I own and train horses, I can barely watch a race without worrying about it. Can you imagine how casual observers must feel?
If people in racing insist that they must do what they do, horse racing will go from struggling to get owners in the game, as it does now, to gone.
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ratherrapid
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My smart aleck answer is to ask Mr. Sparkman what he'd do with a horse that bleeds. and btw 75% of 'em bleed. Do we really need the brilliant filly that recently won the Jap Cup bleeding profusely at the nose as she crosses the finish line?
but, there is drug abuse, and also that it's a complex question.
My own position is as follows:
1. Lasix is without question necessary.
2. Bute needs to be eliminated, and there needs to be a rule--no shoeing within 3 days of a race. That will eliminate the "hoof stinging" on hard tracks for which Bute was originally prescribed.
3. All other drugs may ownly be used on specific pre-race application to and approval by the Stewards, i.e. you can apply to use a med. The Stewards should approve breathing Meds, Air Power, Clenbuterol, for horses with breathing difficulties.
but, there is drug abuse, and also that it's a complex question.
My own position is as follows:
1. Lasix is without question necessary.
2. Bute needs to be eliminated, and there needs to be a rule--no shoeing within 3 days of a race. That will eliminate the "hoof stinging" on hard tracks for which Bute was originally prescribed.
3. All other drugs may ownly be used on specific pre-race application to and approval by the Stewards, i.e. you can apply to use a med. The Stewards should approve breathing Meds, Air Power, Clenbuterol, for horses with breathing difficulties.
Last edited by ratherrapid on Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Tiz wrote:
My sentiments exactly. I really cannot fathom the reasoning of horses who are athletes will have aches and pains so give 'em meds (bute,depo, whatever) pre-race all the time. I ran hurdles in my prime not so long long ago and guess what ..... I could train HARD (Thanks Coach Hunt) six days a week including competing 2 to 3 times in that week and NEVER touched aspirin,Advil,Tylenol..... whatever. Now I crawl out of bed and debate taking some but I digress.... being an athlete does not mean you are in pain. When you are fit and at the top of your game pain normally isn't a concern. When you are a competent owner or trainer you know when pain is a concern to your horse.
I will openly admit this being my first year as a trainer I fell hard on my beliefs of not medicating for racing. I got a filly who sucked, only gave her lasix her first 2 starts (4cc's) and she kicked out a 2nd and a 3rd. So when word got out in my little circle I only did that, I succumbed to the whispers of "Oh if only you gave her x, y, and or z, she would have won for you"..... so I did the next 8 starts and guess what .... she went back to sucking.. no other word for it. Trained lasix and med free like a freight train constantly and before every race I began racking up a $80 plus vet bill. All for naught. She ran in 16k claimers the first 2 outs and ended up finishing up the field 20+ lengths in 5k claimers.
So when I head back to the track this spring with her she will get lasix and meds WHEN NEEDED not to just race. I also will have two first time starters ages 2 and 3. I am going back to my radical belief of training to run a race so they can run the race. Praying I will not have to jump the lasix wagon too quickly or progress into anything else I really want to stay the hell away from. So am I straight hay, oats, and water. No, but I aim stay the course this time, not only for my own convictions but for my horses. Now I will only have to worry about the horse that feels so good it can't feel it's leg fracturing beneath it and taking mine out as it goes down.
Nowadays, though I own and train horses, I can barely watch a race without worrying about it.
My sentiments exactly. I really cannot fathom the reasoning of horses who are athletes will have aches and pains so give 'em meds (bute,depo, whatever) pre-race all the time. I ran hurdles in my prime not so long long ago and guess what ..... I could train HARD (Thanks Coach Hunt) six days a week including competing 2 to 3 times in that week and NEVER touched aspirin,Advil,Tylenol..... whatever. Now I crawl out of bed and debate taking some but I digress.... being an athlete does not mean you are in pain. When you are fit and at the top of your game pain normally isn't a concern. When you are a competent owner or trainer you know when pain is a concern to your horse.
I will openly admit this being my first year as a trainer I fell hard on my beliefs of not medicating for racing. I got a filly who sucked, only gave her lasix her first 2 starts (4cc's) and she kicked out a 2nd and a 3rd. So when word got out in my little circle I only did that, I succumbed to the whispers of "Oh if only you gave her x, y, and or z, she would have won for you"..... so I did the next 8 starts and guess what .... she went back to sucking.. no other word for it. Trained lasix and med free like a freight train constantly and before every race I began racking up a $80 plus vet bill. All for naught. She ran in 16k claimers the first 2 outs and ended up finishing up the field 20+ lengths in 5k claimers.
So when I head back to the track this spring with her she will get lasix and meds WHEN NEEDED not to just race. I also will have two first time starters ages 2 and 3. I am going back to my radical belief of training to run a race so they can run the race. Praying I will not have to jump the lasix wagon too quickly or progress into anything else I really want to stay the hell away from. So am I straight hay, oats, and water. No, but I aim stay the course this time, not only for my own convictions but for my horses. Now I will only have to worry about the horse that feels so good it can't feel it's leg fracturing beneath it and taking mine out as it goes down.
trying to come up with something brillant..... this may take a while. 
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ratherrapid
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Tiz wrote:To add to Sysonby's finding that sporthorse people medicate, so do barrel people, reining people, and probably every other competitive horse person. One of the track vets here makes $10,000 in a weekend when he has one of his barrel girl haul in's.
Two wrongs still don't make a right.
Or, judicious medication use is not a wrong, its an inevitability that cuts across all horse sports and the "hay, oats and water" proponents are wishing for the return of the "good ol' days" that never really existed.
Personally I prefer reality to political correctness.
One barrel girl that I know personally just retired her good horse, pasture sound only now. He's eleven.
You'll have to support your assertion that the good old days never existed, Sysonby. It isn't enough to just say it.
I was around in the sort of good old days, before joint injections were used, and before bute and other NSAIDS were legal. Back in the day when you couldn't use bleeder medication unless the state vet witnessed your horse bleeding. As I said, I don't remember seeing horses breakdown with regularity, as I do now. It also wasn't generally assumed, and accepted, that your horse would be used up by the time it went through it's conditions.
My opinions aren't based on political correctness, and I resent your use of that term to minimize my message.
You'll have to support your assertion that the good old days never existed, Sysonby. It isn't enough to just say it.
I was around in the sort of good old days, before joint injections were used, and before bute and other NSAIDS were legal. Back in the day when you couldn't use bleeder medication unless the state vet witnessed your horse bleeding. As I said, I don't remember seeing horses breakdown with regularity, as I do now. It also wasn't generally assumed, and accepted, that your horse would be used up by the time it went through it's conditions.
My opinions aren't based on political correctness, and I resent your use of that term to minimize my message.