Mike Pegram down to 3 horses

[FOS]

hi fastappy

Actually it is Claiborne's tenacity to stick with their traditional horsemanship that has kept them as the only family owned farm to stick around for a century.

Traditional horsemanship? Under Seth's watch (for example) Danzig was turned out in a freshly creosoted paddock, and the GREAT stallion was blinded (in one eye) as a result. That's not traditional, that's unforgiveable (if not downright stupid).

Traditional horsemanship? For decades, it was no secret what the breeding shed at Claiborne looked-like/was, and arguably the no nonsense, don't mince words kinda description that may have best described the breeding shed at Claiborne was...dump. Is there really a gentler way to say it? It was beyond terrible, it was a dump.

Yes, Claiborne is a farm rich in history but may not have been/be quite the romantic picture you seem to be painting.

I think I did say, .... "Yes profit has to be part of it to sustain the business & pay the employees..."

You could be right, but I think I'm gonna go with the guys that have proven it for the last 100 years. lol

No slight to Nijinsky/others, but arguably the two premier stallions that Claiborne stood in the last 30 years are Mr Propsector and Danzig...and safe to say neither stood at Claiborne as a result of any Hancock/Claiborne genius.

The impetus to move Mr Prospector from Savin Farm in Florida to Claiborne was the result of Mr P shareholder/fractional interest(s) owner Peter Brandt's confidence that the then young Florida-based stallion would be world-class.

Brandt was the guy who presented an offer to Butch Savin, and ultimately upped the ante to $500k per share/fractional interest (as long as the necessary number of interests necessary to move the horse to the farm of his choice could be attained) after he convinced Ogden Phipps (son Dinny) to join-in with lots of cash. Voila...an attempt at a relatively quiet behind-the-scenes plan was in play, and Mr P (if the deal got done) would go to Claiborne. The deal did get done, and the rest is history...thanks largely to Brandt, and Phipps.

As for Danzig, trainer Woody Stephens selected the colt as a yearling and had his client (deKwiatkowski) dig deep to purchase for $1mil (at auction) the son of Northern Dancer who came with what appeared to be a pretty darn ordinary looking female family.

Danzig had talent, won his only three starts...but was retired (chips/knees) before even running in a stakes race.

It was basically Woody S who all but begged Seth to stand the undefeated but NON-stakeswinning son of Northern Dancer (that he convinced his client to pay a million dollars for). Seth agreed, supposedly as a favor to both Woody S and Henryk Dek. Claiborne offered shares/fractional interests at $80k per, and Danzig's initial stud fee was announced at $20k. Few takers.

Surprise...surprise, Danzig turned out to be a GREAT one. Whooda thunk it?

There are a lot of business people who know little about the Thoroughbred business other than wanting their picture being taken in the winners circle. That group will inevitably weed themselves out when the going gets tough as it is now. If all they're looking at is the bottom line that is the not proper inspiration or purpose for breeding & racing these grand animals.

Hmmm...what about Forty Niner? Claiborne/Hancock family did own and race him, but after just a couple years at stud (at Claiborne) he was sold to Japanese intererests for a reported $10mil.

Seth indicated Forty Niner was sold to inject some needed cash into the coffers. That's an acknowledgement of a real world decision/circumstance(s).

Claiborne also stood the top class Seeking the Gold. Acquiring/standing him was not a matter of Claiborne searching out and acquiring a top stallion prospect. He (like homebred/raced Forty Niner) was an easy one to land in the breeding shed; after all Phipps bred, owned and raced Seeking the Gold.

This is a uniquely challenging time, and what may have once been considered traditional (in the world of thoroughbreds) may be (if it hasn't already) in the process of being redefined today.

Respectfully

[tinners way]

I guess I wasn't as clear as I had hoped. Claiborne as a business has a good, traditional model. In the article I think Seths example of Seeking the Gold and Woodman is a good example. Claiborne at least appears to not be promising riches, but the real lesson is that Claiborne has developed clients and run a business for those wishing to get in the game and can afford it. Repeat- developed clients and run a business for those wishing to get in the game and can afford it. Phipp's show loyalty in return by syndicating and standing their stallions there. Thats all good, and the way it should be. That has helped create their "luck" over the years.

If you use the Claiborne/Phipps example it doesn't work for Baffert/Pegram. While he has had plenty of runners and opportunities, Baffert still buys for Pegram. When was the last time Phipps were at sale. Claiborne/Phipps is sustainable. Does Pegram even keep any of his mares. Different business model, and in todays environment it is very difficult to sustain.

[fastappy]

Hi Fos! I'm aware of all the history regarding Danzig & Mr. P, the Phipps, etc. The glaring error (in hindsight) of selling 49'er before giving him a chance to prove himself, etc. I didn't know about the shoddy breeding barn and I doubt the stallions and mares did either, but does all of the stories really outweigh a century of success?

They're horsemen at Claiborne have no doubt about that.

[bdw0617]

hi fastappy

Actually it is Claiborne's tenacity to stick with their traditional horsemanship that has kept them as the only family owned farm to stick around for a century.

Traditional horsemanship? Under Seth's watch (for example) Danzig was turned out in a freshly creosoted paddock, and the GREAT stallion was blinded (in one eye) as a result. That's not traditional, that's unforgiveable (if not downright stupid).

Traditional horsemanship? For decades, it was no secret what the breeding shed at Claiborne looked-like/was, and arguably the no nonsense, don't mince words kinda description that may have best described the breeding shed at Claiborne was...dump. Is there really a gentler way to say it? It was beyond terrible, it was a dump.

Yes, Claiborne is a farm rich in history but may not have been/be quite the romantic picture you seem to be painting.

I think I did say, .... "Yes profit has to be part of it to sustain the business & pay the employees..."

You could be right, but I think I'm gonna go with the guys that have proven it for the last 100 years. lol

No slight to Nijinsky/others, but arguably the two premier stallions that Claiborne stood in the last 30 years are Mr Propsector and Danzig...and safe to say neither stood at Claiborne as a result of any Hancock/Claiborne genius.

The impetus to move Mr Prospector from Savin Farm in Florida to Claiborne was the result of Mr P shareholder/fractional interest(s) owner Peter Brandt's confidence that the then young Florida-based stallion would be world-class.

Brandt was the guy who presented an offer to Butch Savin, and ultimately upped the ante to $500k per share/fractional interest (as long as the necessary number of interests necessary to move the horse to the farm of his choice could be attained) after he convinced Ogden Phipps (son Dinny) to join-in with lots of cash. Voila...an attempt at a relatively quiet behind-the-scenes plan was in play, and Mr P (if the deal got done) would go to Claiborne. The deal did get done, and the rest is history...thanks largely to Brandt, and Phipps.

As for Danzig, trainer Woody Stephens selected the colt as a yearling and had his client (deKwiatkowski) dig deep to purchase for $1mil (at auction) the son of Northern Dancer who came with what appeared to be a pretty darn ordinary looking female family.

Danzig had talent, won his only three starts...but was retired (chips/knees) before even running in a stakes race.

It was basically Woody S who all but begged Seth to stand the undefeated but NON-stakeswinning son of Northern Dancer (that he convinced his client to pay a million dollars for). Seth agreed, supposedly as a favor to both Woody S and Henryk Dek. Claiborne offered shares/fractional interests at $80k per, and Danzig's initial stud fee was announced at $20k. Few takers.

Surprise...surprise, Danzig turned out to be a GREAT one. Whooda thunk it?

There are a lot of business people who know little about the Thoroughbred business other than wanting their picture being taken in the winners circle. That group will inevitably weed themselves out when the going gets tough as it is now. If all they're looking at is the bottom line that is the not proper inspiration or purpose for breeding & racing these grand animals.

Hmmm...what about Forty Niner? Claiborne/Hancock family did own and race him, but after just a couple years at stud (at Claiborne) he was sold to Japanese intererests for a reported $10mil.

Seth indicated Forty Niner was sold to inject some needed cash into the coffers. That's an acknowledgement of a real world decision/circumstance(s).

Claiborne also stood the top class Seeking the Gold. Acquiring/standing him was not a matter of Claiborne searching out and acquiring a top stallion prospect. He (like homebred/raced Forty Niner) was an easy one to land in the breeding shed; after all Phipps bred, owned and raced Seeking the Gold.

This is a uniquely challenging time, and what may have once been considered traditional (in the world of thoroughbreds) may be (if it hasn't already) in the process of being redefined today.

Respectfully

great read FOS


wow talk about luck.

[bdw0617]

I guess I wasn't as clear as I had hoped. Claiborne as a business has a good, traditional model. In the article I think Seths example of Seeking the Gold and Woodman is a good example. Claiborne at least appears to not be promising riches, but the real lesson is that Claiborne has developed clients and run a business for those wishing to get in the game and can afford it. Repeat- developed clients and run a business for those wishing to get in the game and can afford it. Phipp's show loyalty in return by syndicating and standing their stallions there. Thats all good, and the way it should be. That has helped create their "luck" over the years.

If you use the Claiborne/Phipps example it doesn't work for Baffert/Pegram. While he has had plenty of runners and opportunities, Baffert still buys for Pegram. When was the last time Phipps were at sale. Claiborne/Phipps is sustainable. Does Pegram even keep any of his mares. Different business model, and in todays environment it is very difficult to sustain.

and i also think this is the reason you aren't seeing the phipps in the big races anymore.


heck, even phipps last real good horess (storm flat flying for intance) weren't sired by claiborne stood horses..


claiborne's farm has not been living up to their end of the trade off bargain.


outside of pulpit there is not one horse on their list that could sire an easy goer/inside information/personal ensign

right now, claiborne is making a living off the alure of their old sires. case in point eddington, "the son of the great sire unbridled who stood here by the way" War Front "son of the great leading sire dazing"
it's like claiborne has to take their clients down a trip through memory lane to remember the golden days

[fastappy]

Very impressive win by Blame today in the Stephen Foster G1. Claiborne of course stands Arch and is co-breeder on the dam.

[bdw0617]

i thought claiborne basically owned blame didn't they?

[fastappy]

Yes, they co-own and co-breeders on Blame.

[bdw0617]

yeah i got a feelin he will be on that stalllion roster next year lol

[tbrace]

But, back to the point of the thread, it is the kind of thinking expressed in some of these responses that is problematic for racing.

Specifically, it is ok if purses are way down and costs are way up, because, what the heck, it is all for fun anyway. That kind of thinking won't sustain racing.

Most owners have to make some money to defray expenses. Perhaps the most wealthy don't have to make any money, but if only those owners are the ones racing, we will have a very different racing model.

Small breeders will be out of luck, as will many trainers, farriers, etc.

I recommend not being so willing to let things go to hell in a hand basket, but try to turn the business model around with lower costs and bigger purses, and clean races.

[fastappy]

But, back to the point of the thread, it is the kind of thinking expressed in some of these responses that is problematic for racing.

Specifically, it is ok if purses are way down and costs are way up, because, what the heck, it is all for fun anyway. That kind of thinking won't sustain racing.

Most owners have to make some money to defray expenses. Perhaps the most wealthy don't have to make any money, but if only those owners are the ones racing, we will have a very different racing model.

Small breeders will be out of luck, as will many trainers, farriers, etc.

I recommend not being so willing to let things go to hell in a hand basket, but try to turn the business model around with lower costs and bigger purses, and clean races.

I don't see where anyone specifically stated it's OK that purses are way down, and know one I know of is glad costs are up.

From top to bottom, I think all horsemen and women wish that Thoroughbred racing was not in the dire economic conditions it faces, but that is a reality. There are few solutions. The main reasons I see are;
1) The American economy is way down,
2) as a result the descretionary funds normally injected into racing has evaporated,
3) Thoroughbred racing has lost a lot of (marketing) appeal in America,
4) There is too much (poor quality) racing, to support the appeal coupled with online betting and overbreeding, &
5) There are so many other competitive venues for betters and sports lovers.

I'm sure there are more things broken that people can chime in on. I think the slots are a short term fixes for the purse structure.

My point with Claiborne is that you have to applaud any business, especially a Thoroughbred business that has been around for a century! They also appeal to the smaller breeder (as many Kentucky farms do now) with horses like Flatter (5K), Stroll (7.5K), & Parading (3.5K), etc.

[karenkarenn]

Did anyone catch the fact that hes trying to be on the TOC board this time around. And his intro are that he owns a few MCDonalds and that he has owned certain KY horses?
IM not voting for him
Karen

[bdw0617]

But, back to the point of the thread, it is the kind of thinking expressed in some of these responses that is problematic for racing.

Specifically, it is ok if purses are way down and costs are way up, because, what the heck, it is all for fun anyway. That kind of thinking won't sustain racing.

Most owners have to make some money to defray expenses. Perhaps the most wealthy don't have to make any money, but if only those owners are the ones racing, we will have a very different racing model.

Small breeders will be out of luck, as will many trainers, farriers, etc.

I recommend not being so willing to let things go to hell in a hand basket, but try to turn the business model around with lower costs and bigger purses, and clean races.

I don't see where anyone specifically stated it's OK that purses are way down, and know one I know of is glad costs are up.

From top to bottom, I think all horsemen and women wish that Thoroughbred racing was not in the dire economic conditions it faces, but that is a reality. There are few solutions. The main reasons I see are;
1) The American economy is way down,
2) as a result the descretionary funds normally injected into racing has evaporated,
3) Thoroughbred racing has lost a lot of (marketing) appeal in America,
4) There is too much (poor quality) racing, to support the appeal coupled with online betting and overbreeding, &
5) There are so many other competitive venues for betters and sports lovers.

I'm sure there are more things broken that people can chime in on. I think the slots are a short term fixes for the purse structure.

My point with Claiborne is that you have to applaud any business, especially a Thoroughbred business that has been around for a century! They all appeal to the smaller breeder (as many Kentucky farms do now) with horses like Flatter (5K), Stroll (7.5K), & Parading (3.5K), etc.

The American economy is way down,

While the economy is down, this is basically uneffecting the class of people who would purchase and maintain horses.

accountants at goldman sachs or union workers in detroit aren't for the most part owning horses and those are the people losing jobs.

This accounts for GAMBLING yes, but not for people owning horses

2) as a result the descretionary funds normally injected into racing has evaporated,

I'll agree that peoplea re being more cautious and rightfully so, but also, let's keep it real here. Baffert, lukas and many like him are draining their clients dry at sales, like a kid with an amex black card in toy's r us. just pointing and having mommy put it in the basket.

We are LOSING owners

I can't name how many clients lukas and baffert have ran through with their purchase sprees.
this imHO is doing more damage than anything else.

3) Thoroughbred racing has lost a lot of (marketing) appeal in America,

there were 25k people at churchill downs on a friday night and it was one of the few times I looked at a track and wished to god, and it not be a TC event, that i was there. they were having a blast. horse racing has not lost it's marketing appeal, no one wants to change anything (horseman cough) to help market it.

4) There is too much (poor quality) racing, to support the appeal coupled with online betting and overbreeding, &

we can toast to this

5) There are so many other competitive venues for betters and sports lovers.

all the more reason to get more creative and do things right.



this will rub some the wrong way considering this forum but the more i learn, the more i realize that horseman are in the way for the most part, of horse racing taking the next step. they blow clients money wrecklessly (some of them no one here ovbiously), they nick and nag clients with vet bills, they want to run horses everyday, regardless of anyone shows up and they want to run in the middle of the day, all while wanting you to draw more clients in so they can have purse money. the second you try to do something here come the horseman crying.


I like claiborne. they don't overprice their sires, and they care about horse racing, what more do you want. But i was just commenting on the validity of telling a client hey you will be lucky to break even, oh, give me a 50k check to bred to this horse back here.

[fastappy]

Other areas Thoroughbred racing needs to change imo is to be;

1) Uniform in medication(s) or no medication.
2) Uniform in enforcement of medication violations
3) More emphasis on breeding Race Horses vs Sales Horses
4) Quit infighting amoung track & online betting owners, such as Stronach's devisive positions where Oak Tree elects to take the poisonous pill & lose the Breeders Cup, rather than be extorted by Stronach. Thus California suffers.

Stronach is the reason bettors have to flip to HRTV to Watch GGF & flip back to TVG to watch Hollywood, etc. The business is suffering enough without all the infighting and one-upsmanship.

There are many small time breeders who did not breed this year, got rid of their mare(s). I know small business people who because of the economy have quit breeding, to large claiming stables like Robert Bones who is down to a few homebreds. Top to bottom everyone is affected to some degree by the current economic including Dubai (UAE).

As a small time breeder and stallion owner I have continued to breed because I'm in it for the long haul and like Miswaki's dam, "Hopespringseternal".

[bdw0617]

Other areas Thoroughbred racing needs to change imo is to be;

1) Uniform in medication(s) or no medication.
2) Uniform in enforcement of medication violations
3) More emphasis on breeding Race Horses vs Sales Horses
4) Quit infighting amoung track & online betting owners, such as Stronach's devisive positions where Oak Tree elects to take the poisonous pill & lose the Breeders Cup, rather than be extorted by Stronach. Thus California suffers.

Stronach is the reason bettors have to flip to HRTV to Watch GGF & flip back to TVG to watch Hollywood, etc. The business is suffering enough without all the infighting and one-upsmanship.

There are many small time breeders who did not breed this year, got rid of their mare(s). I know small business people who because of the economy have quit breeding, to large claiming stables like Robert Bones who is down to a few homebreds. Top to bottom everyone is affected to some degree by the current economic including Dubai (UAE).

As a small time breeder and stallion owner I have continued to breed because I'm in it for the long haul and like Miswaki's dam, "Hopespringseternal".

\


i actually don' tthink stronach is the reason you have to flip channels from hrtv to tvg, i think that's hollywood park and their exclusive right crap they have with TVG.t hat's been going on for a while.

if i could bet monmouth, hollywood park and del mar via hrtv or watch it on hrtv i'd be in heaven.

i refuse to watch tvg