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 Post subject: Sound, Hard Knockers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:50 am 
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Most of the time when somebody says 'hard knocker' it usually means no speed or not competitive. Here's an interesting family esp. the mares/ff of hard knockers.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/progeny/dr+zachary+mason

Two full sisters with earnings over $300k and 50+ starts but no black type. FF goes back to the Harold Rose stable, Pia Mia, and ff of Hals hope and a lot of black type a couple generations back.

So, from my view, there are some interesting things here - the ability to earn money for a long time, most run at 2, almost all of the horses are runners and winners. No ND blood so there are outcross possibilities.

so, does anybody else find potential value in breed to race prospects of Queen Hypolita or Pu Dew? Everybody whines that there's no soundness out there but here's a family with over $1.1 million, in about 250 starts.(Dr Mont e brook is a winner at 2 this year and just getting going). I would be curious as to what these horses look like in terms of conformation. Must have something going for them.

jm

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:57 pm 
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I'm curious to see photos as well.

Even the half-sib with a cross to Northern Dancer started 42 times.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:03 pm 
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I've followed these ladies for quite some time...incredibly consistent and generally put in a good effort. It seems to be a common trait among mares that trace back to Harold Rose stock...they run early, run often, and earn good money.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:54 pm 
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There are a lot of horses close up in that pedigree that you don't see all that often in much more popularly bred horses.

It sure seems like the ff produces runners.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:03 pm 
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I think if you are in a state with a good state-bred program like we are (Pennsylvania) I'd give them a try.

We have 2 offspring of a mare named Juliana Go & 'hardknocking' runs in her family, too. Her offspring include:

Strawberry Go Go 133 starts 23-36-17 $153,797
Someone Mighty 38 starts 5-5-5 $108,810
Sir Juli Go 135 starts 15-12-15 $100,686
Ladyfolady 48 starts 3-2-7 $64,330 (and mentioned in the book "Not By A Long Shot")

We have Strawberry Gogo and Sir Juli Go. Strawberry Gogo also has produced 2 blacktype fillies from 2 foals to race.

A couple similarities between the family Joltman mentioned & this family:

Both are "Family 1" with Dr Zachary Mason being family 1-h and Juliana Go being family 1-s.

Juliana Go's 3 earners of more than $100k have no inbreeding in the 1st 5 generations. Their only cross to Native Dancer is through Restless Native. Ladyfolady does have some inbreeding but still just the one cross to Native Dancer.

I don't know if that is coincidence, but I love those families that produce the hard-knocking racehorses. I would definitely take a shot with a mare like Pu Dew, if I thought I could figure out the "right" cross for her.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:04 pm 
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I have an Argentine mare that started 64 times and retired sound with $213k in winnings..

Had a hell of a time getting her to settle. Finally found an article on breeding older maidens and emailed it to the Vet


her name is Legitimada

griff

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:09 pm 
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My 'hard knocker' is Outta Luck, who made 43 Starts, with 12 wins, 8 seconds, and 6 thirds, for $174,330 in earnings. Pinched twins this year, lost 'em both, and couldn't get her to settle after that. Hoping next year we have better luck.

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 Post subject: Re: Sound, Hard Knockers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:17 pm 
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Joltman wrote:
So, from my view, there are some interesting things here - the ability to earn money for a long time, most run at 2, almost all of the horses are runners and winners. No ND blood so there are outcross possibilities.


I often wonder if the setup of US racing is partially the culprit for not seeing so many horses who run and win often. Say you breed your own, and one year you have a NICE filly who is good, sound, maybe not stakes quality but definitely will run through her conditions. Do you retire her, run her over her head (and not make money), or risk losing her in a claim?

I'm thinking of a filly like this one:

http://apps.keeneland.com/sales/Nov04/pdfs/2085.pdf

As of last November she had 8 wins for $75k in earnings, and I think she's been claimed at least twice, possibly three times.

With geldings, you see them run longer, because they don't have the residual broodmare value, and they're not going to be a potentially integral part of somebody's breeding program.

If there were a handicap system, not like claimers, but more like what you see in the Australian bush tracks (it's not uncommon to see horses run a hundred times there!), would we see more mid-level ham and eggs runners running for a long time?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:17 am 
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What might also be mentioned here is 'limited commercial opportunity' in that they were bred to the likes of Montbrook (major regional sire) and Lucky Lionel (who I like a lot) and Alaskan Frost. Hardly household names these and none over $10k.

But, what happens when mares from a solid ff like this are bred to today's top tier stallions? Do they return to the 'Hal's Hope' graded stakes ranks (while remaining sound) or do they run 3 times and break down?

If it can be agreed that an outcome such as the family of Dr Zachary Mason is a good thing, an analysis might be helpful to figure out how to preserve the soundness and add a little brilliance. From what I see her pedigree doesn't show any MP, ND, Seattle Slew or any of the 'big horses' of the last two decades. But there are some great ones further back like Dr. Fager.

Maybe the 'limited opportunity' to be bred to today's top tier stallions might be a good thing. Would eliminate the stupidity of paying a pile of money to get a horse that runs a half dozen times and is lucky to get the stud fee back.

These wind up as lower level claimers and the perception is that the residual broodmare value is limited (otherwise they wouldn't be running for $5k). They are soon lumped in with others that have less quality and earnings potential and, most likely, those who bet big time are hardly attracted to these low-end races. Yet, here are some very hard working, competitive horses doing well what they are able.

And from a business standpoint, these may be able to pass what they have along to their progeny - and in that regard are more valuable than the 'commercially viable' mares whose progeny sell for big bucks and can't outrun the stable goat.

jm



jm

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:37 am 
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What about "Knocker" out of Hard Knockin Lady. She really lives up to her name!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:55 am 
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Can someone tell me why claiming races started in the first place? Are they still appropriate in this day and age?

I have to wonder what would happen if all claiming races were made 'optional' claiming races. Would entries increase?

To me, a person not involved in the industry in any way but being a fan, it seems a bit strange to go to the time, trouble and effort of breeding and racing (or buying and owning), a horse, but then enter it in a race where someone else can become the horse's owner.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:23 am 
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aethervox wrote:
Can someone tell me why claiming races started in the first place? Are they still appropriate in this day and age?

I have to wonder what would happen if all claiming races were made 'optional' claiming races. Would entries increase?

To me, a person not involved in the industry in any way but being a fan, it seems a bit strange to go to the time, trouble and effort of breeding and racing (or buying and owning), a horse, but then enter it in a race where someone else can become the horse's owner.


I don't know when claiming races started, but I think the theory behind them is that owners/trainers will place the horse in a bracket where it can win but not in so low a bracket that it would likely be claimed. I'm not sure that this is necessarily true, especially with well-bred fillies and mares. Owners will retire them rather than chance losing them to a claim if they can't make some money in allowance company.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:50 am 
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You would have stakes horses running against $5000 claimers. It just wouldn't work without claiming races.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:15 pm 
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Supernova wrote:
You would have stakes horses running against $5000 claimers. It just wouldn't work without claiming races.


Not necessarily. Right now they have limitations on who can enter certain races, don't they? You could just say that 'optional' claiming races are not open to horses who have been stakes-placed in a certain number of races.

I think what Linda_d wrote about owners retiring their well-bred fillies and mares rather than risking a claim, makes my point. Maybe it's time to look into alternatives.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:36 pm 
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Supernova wrote:
You would have stakes horses running against $5000 claimers. It just wouldn't work without claiming races.


You have merit ratings and handicaps. Say rating 80, where a horse with a rating of 80 gets an impost of 120, over 80 goes up, and lower than 80 a lighter weight. You can also restrict a race to "no MR higher than 90."

It works very well overseas. There is no reason it can't work here, other than it's not the way things are done.


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