Thoughts on the mare Padua and her daughters

[vineyridge]

Col. Bradley imported two of her daughters and used them with the Black Toney sires. It was a very good nick.

First, any thoughts on why it worked so well.

Second, does this mare line still have power today, now that the Black Toney lines are so far back?

Reason I asked is that both Relic and Blue Larkspur were out of daughters of one of her daughters. RAN traces back to her tail female. For that matter, so does Gem Twist, and his dam was by Double Jay. One of the best TB eventing sires of recent date in the UK was Primitive Rising (also chasers), and he by a RAN son out of an Olden Times daughter.

The sires have almost always passed exceptional jumping talent.

[Linda_d]

Actually, Bradley imported a daughter and a granddaughter: Padula (daughter) and Vaila (granddaughter).

Bradley bred the good steeplechaser, Beezlebub, from Black Servant (Black Toney x Padula) and Vaila (Fariman x Padilla by MacHeath). He was a 2 x 3 cross to Padua.

Blue Larkspur is actually 3 x 4 to Padua, as his sire was out of daughter and his dam was out of a daughter of Vaila.

Bill And Coo, RAN's fourth dam, was by Helmet (another Domino line stallion) out of Padula. Raise You also traced to Ultimus, yet another Domino line stallion, through her sire, Case Ace. Black Toney and his son Black Servant were also Domino line stallions. Native Dancer added another thread to Domino through his sire's third dam, Black Maria by Black Toney. The Domino over whatever these two mares had may be what clicked, I think.

[vineyridge]

I'd always thought that Cinderella, Peter Pan's dam, was the source of the exceptional jump in that line--she's tail female to the Alexander Mare of 1790, and that mare is a very reliable source of jumping talent. But neither Helmet nor Ultimus have her.

Did y'all know that the Hermit sireline was alive until the middle of the 1900's? His last good sire descendant that I'm aware of, Guersant, sired a horse whose name escapes me, who was sent to the Netherlands and used in breeding Dutch sport horses. His sireline is dead there, and I'm wondering if there might be a Bubbles line alive somewhere in Eastern Europe or South America. Hermit/Newminster/Touchstone are also very heavily implicated in the TB jump.

[Matchemforever]

Viney,

Any time you have a "Ronald" in the TB pedigree, you've got Hampton, whose grandsire was Newminster. The Holstein breed used that line quite heavily.

However, would wonder if Newminster was the only source of the jump in the Hampton line. Take a look at the inbreeding of Hampton's dam, LADY LANGDEN. I can't imagine that that did not have a lot to do with this stallion's ability to be the ancestor of so many horses used for sport, especially jumping.


Edited to add:
Note that there is no duplication in Hampton's sire, Lord Clifton, through the 5th. Interesting, especially for the time. However, Newminster is interesting for the duplication, top and bottom, of Trumpator and Beningbrough. So that doubling up does exist further back.

Lord Clifton's dam, The Slave, has duplications of Golumpus, Termagant (A mare), Sir Peter Teazle, and a cross of Trumpator.

But I'm not seeing a lot of similarities through the 5th or even a bit beyond, in Hampton's sire, Lord Clifton, and dam, Lady Langden. So I wonder if this was one of those crosses or "nicks" that happened to produce a prepotent sire for the jump?

[vineyridge]

Buzzard was also the sire of Selim, Castrel and Bronze, all out of the Alexander Mare, so you can check that off in Lady Langden, as all of them are wonderful progenitors of the jump. I know that Lady Langden doesn't have any of them showing, but she does have Buzzard doubled or maybe tripled. In fact, Sultan was a son of Selim, which gets you to Pocahontas. Pocahontas was very heavily used as a foundation for Hannover and the Trakehner. Take a look, for instance, at Alnok and Fling's pedigrees on Allbreed or Sport Horse Breed database. Those lines are still huge today. All of the F's in Hanover go to Fling, and the Alnoks are the modern E line. The Traks used no fewer than four (maybe five) of her sons and daughters in the creation of their breed. Maybe one reason Bay Ronald worked so well in Germany was because of Pocahontas.

Camel is out of a Selim mare. Plenipotentary's second dam is a Selim daughter. Pauline is out of a Selim daughter. If you got back to Woodpecker, the amount of him in both pedigrees is enormous.

Beningbrough was the tail male grandsire of one of the two Harpham Turks who are foundation sires for Holstein. I'm not exactly sure how the Beningbrough one got to Holstein; the Ruler one got in through Cleveland Bay imports.

Rose Leaves is top and bottom to Hermit, and she is the granddam of Bull Lea, Cormac, and Espino, all of whom were wonderful showjumper sires.

Blacklock was one of the very early good sires of chasing horses. In the beginnings of my enthusiasm for TBs that jump I thought that it would be a lifetime breeding project to try and pack in as much Hampton in the back as possible. . Now I wonder if it wouldn't be even more valuable to try and pack Dollar and Atlantic for sport TBs, or maybe both those Buzzard/Alexander Mare lines and a separate Hampton line, and then cross.

[Matchemforever]

Got me trying to remember the TB' sires used in Holstein in the past. Just a quick notation here. They almost always incorporated the Hampton lines, mostly through Dark Ronald:

Marlon
I don't think this line carried on, maybe not enough Hampton. Dam line
carries a lot of Cyllene. Mares seemed to be valuable, for a while. Once
rode a horse by him that was like riding a jack hammer.

Dark Ronald
It's not always Hampton through Dark Ronald, but enough so to perhaps
make his dam important in some way.

Manometer
Also in Capitol’s pedigree. Has the Dark Ronald cross but this line
did not carry on as well except in the case of Capitol, if I remember
correctly.

Sacramento Song
Prince Rose over Dark Ronald

Ladykiller
Phalaris over Hampton lines, dam Agnes line?

Cottage Son
Hampton, Rock Sand, St Simon
Capitol from this line, Cottage Son over Ramzes

Since the Cottage Son line carries on today through Capitol's decendents as jumping horses, there may have been something there with the addition of Rock Sand. I mention that because Man O' War out of a Rock Sand mare was a good source of jump. Of course Ramzes is important. Then Cor De La Bryere brings back Hampton through Son-in-law, and Landgraf has Ladykiller.

So, for the jump, the intertwining and relationships in the TB lines, to me, incorporate mostly Cottage Son, (Capitol) Ladykiller, (Landgraf) and RANTZAU. (Corde)

And, although due acknowledgment has to be given to the Holstein mare base, the TB lines represented by these three also must have contributed a great deal to the jump and nicked back together in some way. Hampton, of course. But the one that stands out is the Rock Sand in Cottage Son's pedigree. One wonders if he'd stayed in Europe if Rock Sand might not have played an even larger part in the Holstein jump.

On edit:
I believe most of the mare base descends from carriage horses/light farm horses. You want a horse able to rock back but I don't know if they have to carry themselves as uphill as a dressage horse. Do carriage-type horses carry themselves more uphill, or did they get that from the TB's OF THE DAY?

[vineyridge]

For a REAL puzzle, that Marlon was a buckskin.

There's a lot of Asterus floating around in German WBs, but Teddy's dam was by Bay Ronald. Teddy's damline is to the Alexander Mare.

Bachelor's Double was the 2nd damsire of Blue Peter (Ladykiller) and also the damsire of Furioso. Damsire of Blue Peter, The Tetrarch, is a prolific jumping line, and it traces back to Atlantic--i.e. Castrel, son of Buzzard and the Alexander Mare. There's a lot of Newminster in there as well. Bachelor's Double has a triple to Stockwell, and a double to Hermit, along with another line to Newminster, through Lord Clifden.

I think TB Heritage did an article on Lord Clifden and his chasing descendants a while back.

[Matchemforever]

You've probably seen these:

http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/cgi-b ... 000241.htm

http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/cgi-b ... 000242.htm

No doubt Hampton is very important in sport. Lord Clifton may be the reason Hampton began his career racing over hurdles. But I think that power pack in his dam line of the full siblings Lannercost and Ostina may be the reason his line was so prepotent for it- nothing to kill the jump but the genetic power pack to carry it forward.

Regarding my last post, thinking about your comment of crossing as much Hampton over other lines as possible, got me to thinking about the other TB lines in the Thoroughbreds used in Holstein, crossed with Hampton, which I posted. Which were more successful? That might give you a basis to go on. Of course, there were always the mares but as I've wondered, how much came from them and how much from the TB lines used? I don't think those mare were out doing a lot of jumping before introducing the TB.

Edit:
Adding these links to articles for the TB lines mentioned-

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/1 ... 0-to-2010/

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/1 ... ce-horses/

[vineyridge]

Probably the greatest TB line in all of sport to my thinking is Blandford. Because of his mare lines, he crossed well with almost everybody. I think Blandford is even greater than Hampton.

[xfactor fan]

What makes a jump line? Are there any conformation points in common, or is it attitude?

Zebras apparently don't jump, Mules do, anyone know if Donkeys jump?

[vineyridge]

Donkeys don't jump. Pigs do.

Honestly, it's a combination of factors--attitude definitely being one, and conformation another. Jumping uses short twitch muscle fibers if I recall the scientific research correctly. Technique is incredibly important.

The Hannoverian Verband has done research into the heritability of the traits that they look for in inspections--which for stallions and mares includes free jumping over rather substantial obstacles, and what they evaluate are form, power and scope. They say that good jumping technique and ability is the highest heritable trait they have found--in the neighborhood of 40% heritability. Most of the other traits that they evaluate in inspections have much lower heritability--the majority less than 10%, while movement may be in the neighborhood of 20%.

Arabs, for instance, generally jump like deer, which is not the technique that showjumpers need.