"Modern" stallions -- pensioned too soon these day

[Jorge]

Are "modern" stallions being pensioned too soon these days?

[Laurierace]

I am going to vote no. If there was any way to squeeze some more cash out of them I am sure they would. Nobody wants to pension a successful horse.

[Bohemia]

I vote "no" also. There are a lot of elder stallions still breeding ... take a look at Two Punch at Northview.

[Jorge]

Oh, I agree with both of you, but my question is more focused on determining if our "modern" stallions have become less fertile than their forefathers, reason why they are being forced into early exit from stud duties. You know, something somehow similar to what has occurred in racing, where "modern" horses are achieving less and less lifetime starts. Perhaps early retirement from stud duties is a byproduct or the other side of the coin of less lifetime starts. That's the purpose of my question.

[Mahubah]

I don't know about fertility, but I'd wonder if overuse of a young stallion couldn't contribute to arthritis later in the neck, back, or hocks that might force a horse to be pensioned even if his fertility is still adequate because he can no longer mount mares. Anyone done any studies on this?

[KBEquine]

I think Mahubah's got it - back in the day when a stallion had a full book at around 40 mares, and didn't shuttle for a northern & southern hemisphere season, they could breed for more years.

Think repetitive stress . . .

[kimberley mine]

Oh, I agree with both of you, but my question is more focused on determining if our "modern" stallions have become less fertile than their forefathers, reason why they are being forced into early exit from stud duties. You know, something somehow similar to what has occurred in racing, where "modern" horses are achieving less and less lifetime starts. Perhaps early retirement from stud duties is a byproduct or the other side of the coin of less lifetime starts. That's the purpose of my question.

Jorge, I think you're asking several questions at once, and looking for an overly simplistic answer to cover all of those questions. Right off the top of my head...

1. Are modern horses (born after 1992, and thus still likely to be breeding) less fertile than their predecessors?
2. Are modern horses more likely to be pensioned earlier for any reason than their predecessors?
3. Is there a change in the management of breeding careers of modern shuttle stallions compared to their predecessors?
4. Is there a change in the management of breeding careers of modern non-shuttle stallions (huge books, etc) compared to their predecessors?
5. Is there a correlation between average lifetime starts of a modern stallion and the length of time he stands stud?
6. Do horses who retire after only a few starts have longer stallion careers than stallions who retire after many starts, with that number controlled for the extra years the few-start horses would have? Is there a difference between that number now and few-start horses in the past?

And so on.

To get a solid answer that I would believe, you'd have to ask a bunch more questions. If certain genetic lines are predisposed to fertility problems--think Weekend Surprise and her ridgling sons, or Danzig and his many subfertile sons--is that something new and different, or is that part of the "background noise" in the breed? Are there more of them? Subfertility is nothing new...Assault didn't do much, Snaafi Dancer was sterile,

Do shuttle stallions stay active longer than non-shuttle stallions? What about horses like Octagonal (AUS) or Easing Along, who went on the shuttle for one season and never returned? Do their careers last the same amount of time as horses who are always on the shuttle, or horses who never shuttled?

There are horses who get sick or injured in the paddock that has nothing to do with racing longevity or quality--think Free House flipping and cracking his skull after a bath, or Unbridled suffering a fatal colic.

And then there are the Buddhas of the world. What happens to horses whose offspring are dead slow? I would assume that they have a curtailed stallion career, simply because nobody wants to breed to a proven sire of losers.

My gut feeling is that stallions who go on the shuttle and stay on the shuttle for a LONG time--REGARDLESS of racing longevity--have shorter stallion careers than stallions who do not shuttle, and also that they have shorter lives than stallions who don't shuttle. Hennessy, Roar, and Woodman died fairly young. Royal Academy was pensioned at 22 or so. I don't know the cause of this...it could be, as Madelyn speculates, the arthritis catches up to them. It could be that the flying is stressful, or that as the stallions age that their immune systems decline and they can't hold off infections as well. It could be that huge books take their toll as the stallions age, and they die of heart attacks (Hennessy). Either way, that isn't soundness, it's management.

[ak1]

Based on a few other recent conversations, does the practice of injecting joints during their racing career contribute to an increase in arthritic changes as the horse ages? (which if in back legs would ultimately limit a stallion's career)

Very interesting questions to ponder...I do agree management is the key factor any way you look at it.

[freshman]

Syndication pensions most stallions "early" or at least before they are truly infertile or physically unable to bred in the literal sense. The syndication agrees amongst itself to a total stop in breeding. I mean, some shareholder could decide to have Storm Cat, now "pensioned," cover his mare one spring on a whim and he happens to get her pregnant with his few good sperms. Before you think--yah!, one more Storm Cat foal, how cool!--pause to think about how pissed off the other shareholders will be when said foal shows up at Keeneland and is sold for a billion dollars. No fair, and what a hot legal mess. Of course, a privately owned stallion can be breed for as long as the owner wishes to try it, and so are either officially retired at a later point than their syndicated counterparts.

[ElPrado]

I don't think that there is much difference between what you see now from what the procedure was in past years. You didn't get the never ending advertising of stallions before. The internet has opened the access to an unprecedented amount of information that we can use. Farms are telling us when a stud dies or is pensioned. 20 or 30 years ago you would find out a horse has been pensioned by trying to book a mare. Now a horse has fan clubs, and farms get constant requests for info on this or that stallion, still actively breeding or not. They tell us now in self defense.

[summerhorse]

I think they are or at least at the larger studs they are. I've seen horses pensioned that were still breeding well BUT were not attracting huge books and it seems that if the horse attracts less than 30-40 mares they just don't want to fool with him esp. if his fee is in the lower range.

I know Private Terms was pensioned and he had 20 odd mares that year and would probably have gotten that many the following year but 20 mares at (whatever his fee was, 3,500?) seems to be not enough to bother wasting resources on.

I think Mahubah also had a good point about arthritis, etc. Too many 20 year olds are being pensioned due to infirmmities of "old age". Many die within a couple of years. 20 is hardly ancient.

[Jorge]

I still remember the days when PROSPECTORS GAMBLE's book of mares was huge during his first years at stud with his progeny being sold at auction in huge numbers. Then, all of a sudden... out of the panorama while still being capable.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php? ... ROSPECTORS GAMBLE&filter=All+Horses&cf=&sort=Year&pedloggedin=0

[Jorge]

I still remember the days when PROSPECTORS GAMBLE's book of mares was huge during his first years at stud with his progeny being sold at auction in huge numbers. Then, all of a sudden... out of the panorama while still being capable.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php? ... ROSPECTORS GAMBLE&filter=All+Horses&cf=&sort=Year&pedloggedin=0

Do you remember the cited stallion and his many sons and daughters during his initial years as a stud?

[Jorge]

Any other comments or opinions?