deal killer?

[Joltman]

Just a thought

we usually look at pedigrees to see what names or combinations give a foal a better than average chance to succeed. What about the opposite - ie. what commonly occurring ancestors (or ancestors in particular positions in the pedigree) basically kill it, i.e. fall far below the average/median earnings and capabilities.

Don't know how something like that might be fetched but would be worth fetching. Wouldn't be surprised if there were some surprizes - like a great race mare that is always bad news to a pedigree?

jm

[dublino]

GRAUSTARK

[Diane]

Ok Dublino 'splain your thoughts on Graustark.

[dublino]

Slow late maturing influence, I won't say an anti dirt influence but more leaning towards grass. Kind of everything commercial US breeding isn't.


Have a look at this table for some broodmare stats that might open up debate on what is percieved as good but statistics say isn't.

http://www.chef-de-race.com/dosage/broo ... s_2011.htm


I think for the future Menifee is a name that should be noted for a good influence.

[brogers]

I think that Graustark has got better, or at least been less lethal, as he has recessed back into pedigrees.

[kimberley mine]

Storm Cat over AP Indy and vice versa has been REALLY unsuccessful given the quality of horses involved. Compare to Storm Cat with Gone West.

Sons of Unbridled's Song IMO qualify as pedigree-killers. To date only Even the Score has made a good showing of himself, out of plenty to try. People who bred to Domestic Dispute and Buddha lost out big; Rockport Harbor not looking so great and Unbridled Time even worse.

Gentlemen (ARG), Behrens, Arazi, and Soul of the Matter would worry me.

[Tappiano]

Arazi was here there and everywhere so I'm not sure he's going to have much of an influence in the future.

The US and the SC over AP back to US is really scary because that's what is going to saturate the market.

Graustark seems to need a "calming" influence but I don't know which one it is yet.. when I find it I will let you know. There are two over it that is successful.

SC with GW had people going after the Secretariat influence which I like but I would suspect that perhaps there is such a vast physical difference that's creating offspring that just are not cut out for racing. I have not seen many of them so cannot comment but I would have expected inbreeding to him to be good.

[kimberley mine]

SC with GW had people going after the Secretariat influence which I like but I would suspect that perhaps there is such a vast physical difference that's creating offspring that just are not cut out for racing. I have not seen many of them so cannot comment but I would have expected inbreeding to him to be good.

Storm Cat and Gone West has actually worked pretty doggone well. You have the champion Speightstown, Gr-1 winner Frost Giant, Saorise Abu (IRE-I), Ollagua (Arg-1, by Pure Prize out of a West by West mare), Gr-2 Horse Greeley, G-3 Indian Ocean, Stormin Quality (by Stormin Fever), etc. It seems to me that more Storm Cat-line mares are going to Gone West sons than the other way around, but the cross looks to work either way.

Storm Cat tends to sire heavy, blocky horses; Gone West can go either way but they look lighter to me. I think that's the difference. AP Indy is a big horse who gets a big horse...put him with Storm Cat and you get a heavy blocky thing that can't get out of its own way.

[TomFool]

I will add High Yield & Grand Slam. I am also not a fan of sons of Unbridled's Song nor most sons of Unbridled either. It is hard to imagine a worse stallion than Eddington right now.

[LB]

Storm Cat over AP Indy and vice versa has been REALLY unsuccessful given the quality of horses involved.

I imagine we're going to see an upswing in that particular cross now that it's produced Turbulent Descent.

[walaa]

Wondering what those who dont like US sons think of Political Force?? of course they wont race until later this year, but at least he was sound enough to race more than most of them and won/placed in graded stakes at 2 and 4, I havent seen him in person, but in photos sure looks better than most sons. In all conversations on here about US sons I never hear of him mentioned, it seems race record and conformation wise, he would have a better chance than most??I have a 2 yr by him out of a Tabasco cat mare, so Im sure hoping this cross works out well, since she didnt sell She is TALL, measuring 16.2 this last week, and not biologically 2 yet, Im in no hurry to get her going. Just hoping the US/ SC cross goes better than normal, since Im stuck with training/racing her now

[Patuxet]

Roger Lyons makes some pertinent observations about Graustark here: http://werkhorse.com/pedigreematters/in ... hard-edge/

The follow-up comments include this by Frank Mitchell: "In terms of his biomechanical influence, Graustark was decidedly difficult. He fell far outside the norms of the breed for phenotype, and that was his great difficulty in matching well with mares."

[Bast]

Graustark was one of the most fluid movers at racing speed that I can recall seeing in action. Too bad that kind of easy stride could not be passed on.

[Bettina]

Hallo,
a male descent of Graustark stands in Germany. The Sire Boreal (by Java Gold), a very good Racehorse, but so far a disappointing Sire. He is a HB of Borgia and stands at the Ammerland Stud.

Another Sire standing inmmy homecountry, Royal Dragon (by Danehill)
combines the 3 x 3 FB's Graustark/His Majesty. He is the Sire of Dextera, Waky Love, Laeya Star etc.

Regards, Bettina

[Crystal]

Storm Cat/AP Indy sons have heavily saturated regional markets, and they get mostly Northern Dancer mares.. tough call for regional sires but they take what they can get to pay the bills.

Storm Cat with US would make me walk away unless I saw a super durable female family that has a SOLID history of throwing RACEHORSES.. like 6, 7, and 8 year old racehorses.. Not 3 starts (unplaced) racehorses.

I also want to see better than average knees and ankles.