Adding Speed To Stamina

[Patuxet]

I'm located in Florida and breed to race on grass which I consider a kinder surface. I aim for a horse which can get 10 furlongs as a 3YO and go longer at 4. I prefer to breed to Florida stallions which accomplished the same in Gr.I company like Sweet Return and Shakespeare.

I have a nice Pine Bluff mare named Fiddle, a SW of nearly $150,000, Mellon breeding, 3rd dam full to Raise A Native. I note that only twice when Fiddle was racing was she able to mount even minor rallies. Since she has a pedigree rich with stamina influences I thought that adding some proven speed might help. I also noticed that Majestic Light, her second damsire, has often worked with Buckpasser. This may be in part because they were both Phipps horses. So I started looking for a Florida stallion with Buckpasser and speed.

This brought me to Mass Media, a very fast horse and a proven sire, He was sired by a Belmont winner and Fiddle's sire, Pine Bluff, was a close 3rd in AP Indy's Belmont, the third fastest ever run. Curiously Mass Media's dosage points more toward distance/stamina: 6-2-13-0-1 DI = 1.93 CD = 0.55

I was especially taken by the fact that both the dam of Mass Media's sire and the dam of his dam (his granddam) produced significant turf horses at a distance. .

His sire, Touch Gold, is a half to Canadian Triple Crown winner, With Approval, which won $2,863,540, and set a new world record for 11f on turf (2:10.20) in the Bowling Green Handicap and set a NSR in the 11f Tidal H.

Mass Media's dam, Sultry Allure, is a half to top turf horse, Solar Splendor, winner of $1,386,468 including the Turf Classic and the Man O' War twice. Solar Splendor is the third best horse sired by Majestic Light which, as noted above, is also the sire of Fiddle's dam, Chatham Light.

I'm aware that when a distance/stamina horse is mated with a speed horse the offspring often turns out to be neither fish nor fowl. I'm wondering if the distance proclivities exhibited by the other offspring of Passing Mood and Sultry Sun might indicate an ameliorating tilt toward the distance/stamina wing.

For what it's worth, the Dosage profile of this mating is: 3-2-7-1-1 DI: 1.55 CD: +0.36

Mare's pedigree: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10565766

Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

[camar711]

Just wanted to comment that the incentives on Mass Media they are AGAIN offering this year are quite good. Probably can't go wrong there.

[kimberley mine]

I have a nice Pine Bluff mare named Fiddle, a SW of nearly $150,000, Mellon breeding, 3rd dam full to Raise A Native. I note that only twice when Fiddle was racing was she able to mount even minor rallies.

Regarding speed types plus stamina types, the first thing IMO you need to look at is the physical matchup. It's no good adding speed or stamina if you get a frankenhorse out of it...especially the front end of a sprinter with the long flat muscling of a staying type, or whatever. So my first question is, how well does MM physically match with your mare.

Second thing is you have partially answered your own question--she could win at a high level but had next to no turn of foot. Does MM have the kind of lightning-quick acceleration you're looking for?

If MM doesn't meet either of those criteria, there's the Gr-1 placed, multiple Gr-2/Gr-3 winning Silver Tree, out of a With Approval mare and he looks more like With Approval than Hennessy. If his fee ever comes back to earth from the outer rings of Saturn, Leroidesanimaux, all the way.

[Patuxet]

Thanks, km, for your thoughtful words. We're basically on the same page. I had a Silver Tree NG last year but ended up using a Shakespeare LF and giving the Silver Tree season away.

In person Leroidesanimaux is hands down my first choice. He's an especially handsome animal with a lovely disposition. Apparently the planets realigned somewhat and Stonewall offered me a very fair deal which I'd jump on if I were breeding for the market.

I'll keep your advice in mind when I return to Ocala and look at stallions.

Allison

[journeyman]

Mass Media does cross well with distance/grass pedigrees. ie: how well he works with Kris S. line mares. That cross has produced multiple stake winners Manicero and Beso Grande!

[Joltman]

Nice mare, lots of potential.

What about with distinction. Would get sex balanced inbreeding to 3 bigggest influences.

then again if you want SPEED, maybe The Green Monkey!

jm

[Tappiano]

Is this where someone would say that the shorter pasterns would be more speed based versus longer one's?

[FiftyYearsPlus]

I bred, own and trained a two turn grass allowance mare by Pine Bluff out of a granddaughter of Raise A Native. She's about 16' 2", stallion size and sassy. I'll give you the benefit of my research on her. You have LOTS of great options depending on how much money you want to invest.
Since she already has a double shot of Raise A Native on the dam side I would recommend first that you look at the sires by In Excess/Indian Charlie. That group with Pine Bluff mares has produced 5 winners and 3 stakes winners from 5 foals to date. The latest to come to stud is the champion Uncle Mo.
The other good option is the sires by Unbridled of which there are many. Perhaps Broken Vow would be an excellent choice.
Good Luck!

[Jose]

I like Repent for this mare.

[Patuxet]

I appreciate all your good information and considered advice.

Unfortunately n Florida I found no accomplished In Excess or Unbridled line stallions.

Neither Repent nor With Distinction seemed to be a biomechanical fit with the mare, but a new stallion named Pleasant Strike proved particularly tempting in that way, as did Silver Tree.

In the end I decided to go with Sweet Return to whom I've bred before --but not this mare -- and I like what he's already given me.

Since I aim to breed a horse which can get 10f as a 3YO on the turf IMO it makes sense to breed to a stallion which was actually able to do that in a Gr.1 race. Sweet Return did pecisely that in the $600M Hollywood Derby and in the process defeated two other accomplished 3YO turf horses -- Secretariat S. winner Kicken Kris was 3rd and VA Derby winner Silver Tree was 4th.

Sweet Return also repeatedly beat BC Mile winner Singletary, earning one of his higher speed figures whilst doing so in the Kilroe Mile. At age seven SR earned another high speed figure running second in the 14f San Juan Capistrano.

SR could win on the lead or coming from behind. In many of his races he showed a remarkable tenacity and when headed he could fight back and seem to find a reservoir of energy to draw on. .

Gary Stevens often rode SR and said of him : "There's no horse around that's got a better kick than this horse does. He's got plenty of heart, plenty of speed."

And "a better kick" is what I was looking for.

Thanks all of you!

Allison

[ides of ice]

Keep us updated on the foal-good luck!

[Patuxet]

Thanks, Ides:

As per your request, here's an email I just received from the farm:

"Bad news; checked Fiddle for the 30 day check and she had absorbed it. I had another one do it too and Ray (the vet) said he checked two before he came here and they did the same thing. It seems that a lot of the late bred mares are slipping. Mother Nature tells them not to have them when it was so hot and dry before all the rain came. At least it will give us a chance to get back to an earlier foal on next years breeding. She looked clean and not discharging."

On the other hand Fiddle's 2YO by Wagon Limit is highly thought of by the trainer.

Allison

[ides of ice]

sorry...

[ElPrado]

The rains did come late. But when they did come, they came with a vengeance.

[Rez]

I would like some insight on something. When a person is looking at Dosage Profile and Dosage Index and CD, what kind of numbers are you looking for? I've been to a ton of sales and watched horses with really high numbers and sell fairly low and seen horses with low numbers sell pretty high and the two horses have the same conformation. I know alot of it depends on the breeding and how you train, but here in Washington everyone wants speed an more speed.