TJ wrote:casallc wrote:Bunty Lawless wrote:casallc wrote:"
As long as ANY raceday medications are allowed, people will continue to try to beat the system. Morphine and synthetic morphines will make horses run faster than they want to, the pain killing effect is not the primary reason for use. It is hard for people to understand that a drug that actually would slow down a human, will make a horse run faster - but it does. Horses and humans react differently to different drugs. Lasix only makes these drugs harder to detect.
Respectfully disagree that stopping raceday meds will cease cheating. Also, Lasix actually helps horses from a health standpoint and I'd like to see whatever evidence you can source that it makes other drugs harder to find. They should regulate how a horse is trained, for humane reasons and the drugs would naturally go away, IMO.
Show me yours and I'll show you mine."Lasix actually helps horses from a health standpoint" that is a pretty bold statement. There has never been a definitive study on lasix and its effects on EIPH. There have been some so-called studies to support lasix, such as the South African, but the controls were flawed and it would never pass muster as a scientific study. Likewise there are other studies (equally flawed Canadian) rejecting the benefits.
You are correct that stopping race day meds will not stop cheating - as long as there is any kind of competition there will be cheating. It will go a long way in stopping the hypocrisy. The idea that you will allow one performance enhancing drug while banning others is insane. Lasix HAS been proven to move a horse up anywhere from 1.3 to 2.4 lengths. The more Lasix, and the closer it is administered to the race, the more intense the alkalinization effect of Lasix = Mini Milkshake. Horses are unlike almost any other creature in the way that they process oxygen and red blood cells (racehorse fuel) the blood thickens 50% during all out exertion, their heart is unique in its capability to process the thicker blood, supercharged with red blood cells, that have been stored in the spleen waiting for that moment. Lasix interferes with that process, thinning the blood and dumping it into an ill prepared body that has been dehydrated by the diuretic effects of lasix.
Hi Cas,
I respect your take on lasix....but the report you cited as being flawed and unscientific (the S. African study)....which was published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association in July of 2009. was funded by the Jockey Club and Grayson Foundation and other prominent people in the business on the side of banning race day lasix. The African study didn't bring back the results they were looking for and they began to knock down the results and countering with other reports that were inclined to go their way. It's much like politics at this point...both sides make "their" sense of it and have the reports to prove it which are totally opposite pieces of information. Personally and fortunatley, in the years I've been involved, I formed my own opinions and I have found a happy medium in the use of lasix for the benefit of the racehorse in the prevention or limitation of IEPH. When I race I administer less than 1/3 of the legal limit of lasix and sometimes less according to how well I've been able to control that individual horses bleeding going into the race. That is because I am able to keep a horse from progressively becoming a worse bleeder than what he is naturally under full capacity respiration. That and the fact I've seen horses under the maximum legal limit of lasix react poorly and seem dull in the paddock. They carry that to the track with them and don't pick up their legs. In every report FOR, there is a report AGAINST the very same issue concerning lasix and its usefulness. I go by what I've seen work and stand by the use of lasix as a humane and therapeutic drug for the horse. I also have no problem if they ban the race day use tomorrow...as I never administered that much on race day to make a very big difference in the performance...and that is because I use it to prevent a horse from becoming an uncontrollable bleeder in morning works. This way I can limit the progressive deterioration of the horses respiratory and circulatory system under maximum performance pressure so the horse can race nearly without any sign of EIPH. If you take the time to scope your horse to see what's going on inside...in the beginning there will be some staining....if left alone it will reach near a category 1...if you take the necessary precautions after you see the first sign of low level bleeding (staining and cat. 1) you will be able to keep that horse at a low level that will allow him to continue to race, without ever getting past the point of that particular animal's naturally occurring bleeding threshold in their lungs. If you allow it to escalate by inaction and it reach's 2-4 levels (which affect race performance), scaring begins to develop in the lungs from these episodes and gets progressively worse each time you ignore it till the horse will bleed uncontrollably and rendered useless to his breed.
Concerning what you called "mini-milkshakes"....if it came anywhere near what an illegal milshake has on the performance of a horse...we would be getting a heck of a lot more TCO2 level suspensions/overages since almost all horses run on race day lasix here in America?? That statement makes no sense...just like politics...it's another talking point for those against race day lasix use. Might I add that bleeders have been around since the 18th century, so this isn't anything new to modern day racing or due to a weakening of todays breed....if so it started way back when. It occurs in horses that perform under extreme conditions. The great Eclipse for instance....in his sires second generation is one of the first known and documented bleeder's in racing, his name was originally Childers Bleeder...later sensibly changed to Bartlets Childers GB 1716. TJ
WOW! There is a lot to address here but first I had to get my serious reading glasses - paragraphs are your friend
I agree that the subject of lasix is like politics and sometimes the biggest lie wins (like today in the Supreme Court). The fact that there are no "facts" to base a sound argument, either way, should make people hesitant about giving horses any drug they don't know how or why it works. Back when I was training, I made it a policy to never give a horse anything I hadn't taken myself. Before I start telling on myself maybe I'd better give a little background.
I admit I'm not current on training medications, testing, and how rules may have changed. I ran last as a trainer in 1987 and back then they turned the telephones off at the tracks during racing and those that were high tech enough to have one of those cell phones about the size of a brick, were not allowed to have them on the grounds. So I am somewhat of a dinosaur.
I was raised around bush tracks in Oklahoma where many of the "racehorses" had a stock saddle on during the week and a jockey saddle on Sunday. Many times the fist fights were better than the racing but there was always someone willing to accommodate you with whichever you preferred. There was no such thing as a betting window but there was plenty of money being flashed by the fistful. Drugging horses was common place and I admit I have loaded up plenty of horses on the bush tracks - but not once on a pari-mutuel track or any official track. Giving a horse ritalin, cocaine or meth was the same as using lasix today - if you didn't do it you were at a disadvantage. That is the REAL reason most people use it. No one seems to want to discuss the fact that lasix IS a performance enhancing drug - they would rather take the "higher moral ground" and claim they are helping the horse not bleed. Omega 3 fatty acids have proven to actually prevent bleeding but it doesn't give them a 20 to 30 pound weight advantage.
About the Mini Milkshake statement “making no sense”, if you will check the number of TCO2 overages, you will find there are plenty of them and that is why Doug O’Neill will beat his suspension. The commission has already admitted there was no evidence of milkshaking so the only thing left is lasix unless they come up with another substance. The correlation between lasix and TCO2 and a good lawyer is enough for O’Neill to walk.
The only way to effectively address the drug problem is to address lasix, first.
Whew! I’m tired and I haven’t even addressed everything but as usual I digress too much.
Pharmacology of Furosemide in the Horse: A Review
Kenneth W. Hinchcliff BVSc, PhD, William W. Muir III, DVM, PhD
Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine
Article first published online: 5 FEB 2008
These pharmacologic effects are frequently used to rationalize its questionable efficacy in the prevention of exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage. Neither the effect of furosemide on athletic performance nor its efficacy in the prevention of exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage has been convincingly demonstrated.
