mating advice-Mr. Expo mare

[Tappiano]

I found this quote from someone from 2005. I wonder what's changed since this post?

"The most dangerous person in this industry is the neophyte breeder who thinks he/she is qualified to give advice on topics on which they have no first hand experience. Like the blind leading the blind.

I'm afraid to say you will find plenty of that on this and most forums. I suggest before you solicit advice from anyone, you ask them for a list of their personal successes (and failures). Reading a few books and looking at a few photographs does not qualify anyone as an authority in this business. Follow their advice at your own peril!

As far as Jack Werk goes, his "rating system" is available only for those stallions made eligible to it by a hefty payment from their owners. Unless you are happy with a limited list of possibilities, I'd find a better source. Try calling a few top breeders with no axes to grind."

[Barcaldine]

Yes, I wrote that very post. It's as true today as it was then.

[kimberley mine]

This mare did win a state-bred stakes in Arizona and placed in three others. She then went on to larger tracks--Aqueduct, Woodbine, and Santa Anita--and ran in lower-level claimers, picking up checks often enough to be useful but never again won.

She broke her maiden in a 2f baby race at Santa Anita in March of her 2yo season, took a long break, and then went on to win again at 7f at Turf Paradise. Her last win was at 6f.

Had this mare stayed in the southwest, with her early speed and ability she probably would have made a good cross for running quarter horses, or bred to a lightning-fast sprinter for the TB drag races in Arizona and New Mexico. I don't see her as being likely to breed on good racing thoroughbreds in the mid-Atlantic.

[3nutmeg]

Thanks to all. I did say that I was ''thinking'' of buying Calce Clues. I do have questions. What is important to you first? Pedigree, Performance? Both would be great. I have read some posts about stallions,and rare pedigrees. Is it important to save a bloodline for the sake of diversity, even though what is left of it hasn't produced much? With a broodmare that has a lot of old blood lines but hasn't produced anything outstanding? Hasn't there been cases of mares that haven't performed well or never raced,but produced outstanding or useful offspring? I wonder what Barcaldine looks for in a horse worthy of breeding. A long time ago I read an article in Thoroughbred Times about a group of people who gelded or maybe euthanized certain bloodlines because they thought they were inferior. I'm not sure, they may have been called The Thoroughbred Review, I might be wrong about the name. Does anybody know more about that? Can a horse outrun it's pedigree? If you look at Calce Clunes on Equibase.com, she placed in 3 minor stakes won AZ Breeders Futurity, was in the money in half of her races though she ended up in claimers. I like to look at the mares people are selling I am learning about pedigrees and performance.

[Jeff]

Nutmeg3,

She's a very nice mare, certainly worthwhile as a breeding prospect, the people who are giving you advice have no idea what they are talking about.

It's totally ludicrous that she wouldn't be a good candidate to produce a foal to run in the mid Atlantic region. Santa Anita is probably one of the toughest tracks to win at in the country and somebody bothered to pay over a hundred bucks a day in training fees to keep her there in training.

Winning on a Southern California track puts her in a league above a mid Atlantic bred.

This mare was a 2 year old winner on one of the toughest circuits in the country, thats what people want, a horse that can win races as a 2 year old, this mare did that.

Over 75% of the thoroughbred races in the nation are run at 6 furlongs or less, and there's every reason to believe this mare is a good candidate to produce a winner or stakes winner. Go get her!

Jeff

[Jeff]

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stalli ... no=1350413

I like Lite the Fuse over Calce Clunes, he's a total outcross to her pedigree, and there's a similarity to Montbrook with the Buckaroo over Explodent breeding. He's been a leading stallion in Pa more than once, and he has 63 winners who'v made over a hundred thousand $$.
At $3,500 he's in your price range. Edited to add: There's also a similarity to Spend A Buck breeding with the Buckaroo over Prince John.

Another one would be interesting would be a stallion with Meadowlake as his damsire, she would bring a Prince John/Raise A Native duplication, breeding back to the damsire.

[Barcaldine]

nutmeg,

You would be well advised to keep learning before committing yourself to this or any other mare.

My advice is to contact several reputable breeders or consultants in your area. Most of them will be very willing to point you in the right direction in terms of quality and value. It is almost certain that they will give you a better chance of success than you have found here.

Remember this too: buying a horse is the easy part. Finding the right one, at the right price, takes effort and the help of people who know what they are talking about.

Good luck!

[bayrabicano]

nutmeg,

You would be well advised to keep learning before committing yourself to this or any other mare.

My advice is to contact several reputable breeders or consultants in your area. Most of them will be very willing to point you in the right direction in terms of quality and value. It is almost certain that they will give you a better chance of success than you have found here.

Remember this too: buying a horse is the easy part. Finding the right one, at the right price, takes effort and the help of people who know what they are talking about.

Good luck!

If someone does not know a reputable breeder or consultant, how would they go about finding such? I would be interested to see what type of mare and the cost (compared to this one) would be recommended for a person just starting out. I would venture to guess that if the "selections" presented for consideration would be a great deal more expensive and maybe not even as nice of a mare.

[Barcaldine]

Hi Bay

Tough to make a hard-and-fast rule about where to look because local situations vary. If I were new I'd probably start at the state breeders' association (other than California!), with the executive director. He/she can also direct you to some of the most reputable breeders and bloodstock agents.

If you live in a state where experience is short, I'd recommend "cold calling" Kentucky farms. You can find a list of these, as well as bloodstock consultants, at www.bloodhorse.com >>>>The Source.

The hardest part of doing this is picking up the phone. There are lots of friendly, helpful and knowledgeable horsemen who enjoy helping a new person find their way. They may not be high profile but can still be a wellspring of good information.

Be wary of "book learners" though. As I've said before, it takes proven breeding experience--not just study--to be a worthy mentor. Also beware of "enablers"---the type who will acquiesce to your pre-conceived ideas. The best advice comes from people who "tell it like it is." Learn from their costly mistakes---no need to reinvent the saddle when others have paid your dues for you.

[DDT]

Barc

So you must think that Nicksters and dosage and other theories are the only people selling snake oil or have no conflict of interest. I guess you exclude California for a reason, but if you are going to tell it like it is, then you should expound on your experience and give us the names of a few consultants or breeders that are willing to help without payment or repayment in some form. Good luck to you on your quest to be number 1.

DDT

[Barcaldine]

DDT

Believe it or not not everyone is out to sell something. If you are sincerely interested in some recommendations send a PM to me.

[griff]

first, if you want a race horse you can buy one for less that you will spend raising it; however, that will not get you into the PABRED and WVBRED breeder's bonuses game. .

Second if you really want to get in, go ahead and jump in the deep end and see if ou make it o the other side. There is no better teacher than spending a lot of money buying and breeding a TB and then raising and training the foal.

Do you have a facility that will, or could be made to accommodate a mare and foal.. If not, and you are planning to board her somewhere I suggest you run and hide.

griff

[Diane]

KimberlyM always makes good solid points. I'd like to add a few of my own. The pic of this mare....she's gorgeous. She's had 2 babies that made it to the track (on this database), great, if you are a breed to race buyer. It will still cost you a stud fee + training fees to get your youngster to the track. If you take that 15k(at least) what can you buy with it that's better, that will give you a better chance of spending less in the long run or breaking even? A better yearling? A better weanling? No doubt.
Looking at her female family page on this website it looks like there were some hard knocking runners. Somebody who lived in Arizona who didn't wander very far usually....Flying Continental was a Ca stallion. Sometimes when a family is not commercial and it's wise owner doesn't waste dollars on trying to sell in a big market you find nice horses seem to pop up out of nowhere. Looking farther back you sometimes find it's maybe a branch from a very good female family. Bingo. You could pull an equineline report looking at 4 generations of mare's produce. This database doesn't show anything.....a whole page of unknown sires, small earners. No hints that there's anything that had speed or racing class.
But.....if you were breeding for a sporthorse? Or trying to breed for flashy color? Yipee......Calce Clunes is your girl.

[stlouiskid]

For what it is worth, I will give you my two cents. This is how I would evalute a potential broodmare purchase for our program. Might add that you did not say if you were wanting the mare to breed to race or sell the foal.
Mare is 13 years old. Was a decent runner, black type winner, but in Arizona bred restricted races.
Pedigree is poor. Sires of dams are obscure(Mr. Expo, Prince Card, Raise a Bid, Flush.)
Race record of dams-Poor. $33,000 in earnings for the first 4 dams.
Produce record of dams. Poor, only around 5 winners over the first three dams, no black type.
Produce record of Calce Clunes-Poor. Had four foals from 2005-08,(bred to poor sires) two raced, they won 1 race and 2 races respectively in bottom level claiming races. Was not bred for two years, has a 2011 foal on the ground.
No sales results for any of her foals.
Calce Clunes sold in 2005 in foal to Luhuk for $11,000.
If you ran her through the sales ring today she would not get a $1,000 bid. Her foals would have no commercial value. I would appraise her at $300-500 today.
Conclusion is we would not even consider this mare for our program.
A suggestion I would make is if you are looking for a mare to produce a foal, go to Keeneland or Fasig-Tipton in November or Jan.-Feb. You can buy a broodmare in foal to good proven sires, who have decent pedigrees(1/2 sisters to graded stakes winners, etc.) for $5,000 or less, who are much younger than 13 years old. Look at the results and pedigrees on their websites from last year in the later sessions, and you will get an idea of the kind of black type and pedigree you can get for your money. The stud fees are paid for already.
You can then take the mare home and foal in whatever state program you want. PM me any time if you have a pedigree question.

[stlouiskid]

Looked at an updated record, she did half a decent 1/2 brother who was stakes placed, but does not change my opinion.