Louis's Blog on Inbreeding

[BenB]

Louis, what is their legacy in present times????????

Just showing that you are an one liner living in the past.

[diomed]

John Madden was the breeder of these superior runners.

1906 ch. C, Sir Martin, 22 starts, Champion 2 yr. old

1906 ch. C, Joe Madden, 31 starts, Won Belmont Stakes

1911 b. F, Old Rosebud, 38 starts, Champion 2 yr. old, Won Ky Derby

1912 blk. C, The Finn, 50 starts, Champion 3 yr. old, Won Belmont Stakes

1916 ch. C, Sir Barton, 31 starts, Champion 3 yr. old, TC Winner

to continue.

Now Old Rosebud is a filly.

[ElPrado]

Was that the first filly to win the Derby, Louis?

[louis finochio]

Regret, 1915. Those proof readers didnt catch the typo of Old Rosebud being a F.

[louis finochio]

PAYNTER (USA) b. C, 2009 DP = 6-0-8-0-0 (14) DI = 2.50 CD = 0.86 - 5 Starts, 2 Wins, 2 Places, 0 Shows Career Earnings: $352,224

Owner: Zayat Stables, LLC
Breeder: Diamond A Racing Corp.
State Bred: KY
Winnings: 5 Starts: 2 - 2 - 0, $352,224

At 3: 2nd Belmont Stakes (G1,Bel,12F), Derby Trial S. (G3,CD,8f)

Foaled March 4, 2009.
Originally named M C's Dream.
Won Debut by 4 1/4L (5.5F MSW,Santa Anita), February 18, 2012.

PAYNTER b. C, 2009
Awesome Again---Yizso, by Cees Tizzy

P is a NFB being inbred 4 X 5 X 5 ND
P has 12 crosses NP stallions & 18 crosses NP mares

This is a text book NFB mating. The speed of Ph. is thru the sire AA, & the outcross was made thru the mare Yizso=Fair Play stamina.

We dont find prolific crosses of thse Ph. stallions, like we see in those FB matings. This NFB mating has a balance of Ph. & NP stallions & mares.

P, has inherited a robust NFB conformation thru his balance of sire lines.

[ElPrado]

Looks like you didn't either.

[ElPrado]

Here's why using these examples as great sires made no sense:


Sir Martin left a large number of progeny; he did not lack for opportunity at stud. However, he "Did not live up to expectations as a sire". Failed stallions do not establish sire lines.

Joe Madden left no progeny, so he either did not survive to become a stallion or he was sterile.

Old Rosebud was a GELDING, which makes establishing a sire line extra challenging.

The Finn became a leading sire. His best son, Zev, appears to have been a poor sire, and so The Finn left no line.

Sir Barton sired only 7 stakes winners, and ended his stallion days at the U.S. Army Remount Service in Wyoming.

[Crystal]

I love how now FBs suffer from feminine appearance, weak immune systems and now Self Esteem issues..

Chicken-hearted-ness is a known TB issue.. But I'm not even going to bother why this is all crap and this whole book is junk.

[BenB]

So almost nothing left for nawadays generations of horseowners.

So the use of soundness 100yrs back is next to nothing.

The one liner show will go on.

[louis finochio]

Crystal: I was told what i posted by those gallop gentleman, that have been galloping for 40 years Those trainers are in their 60s & 70s, they have the knowledge from hands on the job training.

John Madden was a Great Breeder, its not his fault, his tbs didnt carry on their respective sire lines. JM bred 5 Ky. Derby winners.

[ElPrado]

If he was a great breeder, his lines would have still been present now. He did what he could with the lines he had, I grant you.
However, for some reason, his breeding went down hill when sons of Phalaris appeared here in the US. None of his breeding could carry on as a sire line.

[BenB]

superior runners, are sometimes ( more than often) duds in the breeding shed.

[parlo]

superior runners, are sometimes ( more than often) duds in the breeding shed.

Vice versa, that's a reason why Northern Dancer's sire-line is so prolific in producing superior runners: his sons often were outbreeders - they sired progeny of higher racing-class than they had themselves as racing-individuals.

[ElPrado]

Those breeders in their 60s and 70s weren't around in 1910, either, were they. How would they know what Madden did, they were 40 years from even being born. Have any eye witness accounts from people still living? Let's see, if they were in the horse business in 1906, they'd have to be 125 years old, minimum. I really doubt many of them are around to verify any of this stuff.
You're getting really funny. We do have the ability to tell time, Louis. I know this really disappoints you, but we don't have to take your word as gospel. Some maunderings out of a book whose author has been dead 90 years don't really inspire our confidence as to scientific proof of accuracy.

[louis finochio]

SYNCOPATE (USA) b. H, 1975 DP = 12-8-16-2-4 (42) DI = 2.00 CD = 0.52 - 48 Starts, 16 Wins, 8 Places, 7 Shows Career Earnings: $529,209

Owner: Elmendorf Farm
Breeder: Elmendorf Farm (Maxwell Gluck)
State Bred: KY
Winnings: 48 Starts: 16 - 8 - 7, $529,209

1st: Bing Crosby H. (twice), San Simeon H.

SYNCOPATE b, H. 1975--1993
Marshua's Dancer---Sunny Today, by Prince John

S was bred from a NFB mating of Ph. speed over Prince Rose stamina.
S had a OCPNDI=Outcross pedigree no dupe inbreeding
S inherited 22 crosses NP stallions & 29 crosses NP mares

S was a Stakes Quality sprinter, that ran 6 fur. in 1:08 an change.
S inherited his soundness from his prolific crosses of those NP sire line stallions & mares.

You dont need 3 to 4 inbreedings of Ph. stallions & mares, to create a speed burner. To breed a sound fast tb, you need a balance of sire lines. Not 25--29 crosses of one sire line, that is breeding a high degree of unsoundness.