Sightseek, Distant View----Viviana by Nureyev won yesterdays Beldame and has 10 crosses of (Phalaris) 3 crosses of (Teddy) 1 cross of (Gainsborough) 1 cross of (Sundridge) and 1 cross of (Tourbillon).
Sightseek is line-bred to Northern Dancer 1 time on the sire side and 2 times on the dam side. Sightseek is line-bred to Native Dancer 1 time on the sire side and 1 time on the dam side. These same families are leaving their foot prints in the history books.
SIGHTSEEK
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louis finochio
- Darley line
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SIGHTSEEK
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
It's hard to believe anybody these days has only three crosses to Teddy. Every one of my mares' hypo-matings has at least ten, sometimes up to twenty. Of course mine are not from fashionable families. None of the four has Mr. Prospector, and only two have Northern Dancer. So somebody has to fill in for them, like Nasrullah, Royal Charger, Princequillo, and some tangential families.
Louis, you already know all this, but I looked at the first nine generations of Sightseek and my mares. Sightseek does in fact only have three crosses of Teddy in the first seven generations, but eleven in the first nine. Common sources I noted were Raise A Native, Bull Dog, Sir Gallahad, La Troienne, Rose of England, and apparently he was a very popular broodmare sire, because I saw relatively few other stallions, but lots and lots of different mares. I had never really looked before at why so much Teddy in today's American pedigrees. From the GSV scores I've seen, too much Teddy is considered a negative, but less so or slightly positive if it's sex-balanced. The most prolific are Bull Dog, Sir Gallahad, Case Ace (damsire of Raise a Native), and La Troienne, especially through Bimelech.
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louis finochio
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TEDDYS INFLUENCE OVER NORTHERN DANCER
I know see why Sightseek is a superior runner. The line-breeding to Northern Dancer nicks well with the (Teddy) sire line. Northern Dancer was mated to 72 mares that traced to their male line of (Teddy) the result was Northern Dancer produced 46 winners and 20 SW. E. P. Taylor must have known this as he mated these two sire lines together with superior results. If Juddmonte Farms did their home work, I can see why Sightseek is carrying on the Northern Dancer (Teddy) cross or nick for superiority.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
Hi Louis,
You're just hanging some names on the wall and not giving any evidence to support your assertations.
This is really disingenious. E. P. Taylor was on record asking breeders for mares with (multiple) strains of Teddy. This is public knowledge and I've posted it many times. Your post makes it sound like your revelation.
A Northern Dancer / Teddy mating created Sightseek ancestor Nijinsky 2nd, not Sightseek and the fact that Viviana has produced another top class foal in Tates Creek diminishes arguments created by sire Distant View.
You missed entirely the magic in Sightseek's pedigree, her female family of Miss Carmie, one of the most spectacular in the stud book.
Sightseek and Tates Creek are two more additions to this wonderful family that includes Chris Evert, Winning Colors and Chief's Crown as well as Revasser and Bowman's Band active under the second dam, Nijinsky Star.
Regards,
Pete
You're just hanging some names on the wall and not giving any evidence to support your assertations.
Northern Dancer was mated to 72 mares that traced to their male line of (Teddy) the result was Northern Dancer produced 46 winners and 20 SW. E. P. Taylor must have known this as he mated these two sire lines together with superior results.
This is really disingenious. E. P. Taylor was on record asking breeders for mares with (multiple) strains of Teddy. This is public knowledge and I've posted it many times. Your post makes it sound like your revelation.
A Northern Dancer / Teddy mating created Sightseek ancestor Nijinsky 2nd, not Sightseek and the fact that Viviana has produced another top class foal in Tates Creek diminishes arguments created by sire Distant View.
You missed entirely the magic in Sightseek's pedigree, her female family of Miss Carmie, one of the most spectacular in the stud book.
Sightseek and Tates Creek are two more additions to this wonderful family that includes Chris Evert, Winning Colors and Chief's Crown as well as Revasser and Bowman's Band active under the second dam, Nijinsky Star.
Regards,
Pete
I tend to view Sightseek as a representative of the nascent Distant View/Nureyev cross.
The cross between Nureyev and Riverman is begining to get a little stale; now the question becomes: "Will there be a successor nick and/or nicks or not and if yes then who?"
Tate's Creek was bred on the Blushing Groom/Nijinsky cross, this particular sub-branch (Viviana) of that fine Miss Carmie line seems to like crosses which have worked before alot.
-llbean
The cross between Nureyev and Riverman is begining to get a little stale; now the question becomes: "Will there be a successor nick and/or nicks or not and if yes then who?"
Tate's Creek was bred on the Blushing Groom/Nijinsky cross, this particular sub-branch (Viviana) of that fine Miss Carmie line seems to like crosses which have worked before alot.
-llbean
Hi Bean,
(I hope it's ok to shorten your nick? Poor pun - sorry
)
Miss Carmie's family has produced major stakes winners from so many sires that I'd consider the success to be family driven, as it is with La Troienne. Nicks or breeding affinities work in this family but they are not the explanation of the family success - there are simply an overwhelming number of sires who have had produced major stakes winners, often 2 or more sire lines with the same mare.
Putting it in perspective, Miss Carmie is 40 years younger than La Troienne and has already achieved international success; Japan (Tap Dance City by Pleasant Tap), Germany (Royal Dragon by Danehill), South America (Faaz by Fappiano), South Africa (Lambent Light by Capote), Europe and of course North America.
A partial listing of superior runners and their sires from this family:
Confessional by Holy Bull
Sightseek by Distant View
Missed The Storm by Storm Cat
Chris Evert by Swoon's Son
Chief's Crown by Danzig
Classic Crown by Mr. Prospector
Winning Colors by Caro
Tap Dance City by Pleasant Tap
Tate's Creek by Rahy
Bowman's Band by Dixieland Band
Pollard's Vision by Carson City
Revasser by Riverman
Etoile Montante by Miswaki
Buckpasser, Alleged, Nureyev, Blushing Groom and PLeasant Colony have all gotten stakes winners from this family too.
Regards,
Pete
(I hope it's ok to shorten your nick? Poor pun - sorry
)
Miss Carmie's family has produced major stakes winners from so many sires that I'd consider the success to be family driven, as it is with La Troienne. Nicks or breeding affinities work in this family but they are not the explanation of the family success - there are simply an overwhelming number of sires who have had produced major stakes winners, often 2 or more sire lines with the same mare.
Putting it in perspective, Miss Carmie is 40 years younger than La Troienne and has already achieved international success; Japan (Tap Dance City by Pleasant Tap), Germany (Royal Dragon by Danehill), South America (Faaz by Fappiano), South Africa (Lambent Light by Capote), Europe and of course North America.
A partial listing of superior runners and their sires from this family:
Confessional by Holy Bull
Sightseek by Distant View
Missed The Storm by Storm Cat
Chris Evert by Swoon's Son
Chief's Crown by Danzig
Classic Crown by Mr. Prospector
Winning Colors by Caro
Tap Dance City by Pleasant Tap
Tate's Creek by Rahy
Bowman's Band by Dixieland Band
Pollard's Vision by Carson City
Revasser by Riverman
Etoile Montante by Miswaki
Buckpasser, Alleged, Nureyev, Blushing Groom and PLeasant Colony have all gotten stakes winners from this family too.
Regards,
Pete
H Pete, (it's okay)
Interesting about the Miss Carmie line; I didn't really notice that before. Of course what helped power La Trioenne into what she is today was the success of inbreeding to her; I don't see that happening yet with Miss Carmie; what I do see though is that her grandson Chief's Crown seems to do very well with Alydar, whose dam Sweet Tooth was bred on very similar lines to Miss Carmie herself.
Back to Sightseek, she would be very interesting for Peintre Celebre, not quite sure about the 2x3 to Nureyev (the gr. 3 producer Valle De Reves is 2x3 to Nureyev though) but it's still very interesting.
-llbean
Interesting about the Miss Carmie line; I didn't really notice that before. Of course what helped power La Trioenne into what she is today was the success of inbreeding to her; I don't see that happening yet with Miss Carmie; what I do see though is that her grandson Chief's Crown seems to do very well with Alydar, whose dam Sweet Tooth was bred on very similar lines to Miss Carmie herself.
Back to Sightseek, she would be very interesting for Peintre Celebre, not quite sure about the 2x3 to Nureyev (the gr. 3 producer Valle De Reves is 2x3 to Nureyev though) but it's still very interesting.
-llbean
Hi Bean,
I believe you'll find that the inbreeding to La Troienne is a product of time and availability and this will be the case with Miss Carmie. For many years La Troienne's influence was based in her descendant daughters and inbreeding and line breeding were rare because of a limited number of breeding individuals.
Over time, stallions and an increasing number of mares contained La Troienne creating greater availability that allowed breeders to leverage her blood with multiple strains.
Miss Carmie is 40 years younger than La Troienne and that creates a chronological comparison with La Troienne in her 38th year, or 1964. How many individuals were inbred or line bred to La Troienne by 1964? Probably few (this is my supposition) with the bulk of individuals with multiple strains of La Troienne coming in the following decades. One of the first to feature an in your face La Troienne cross was Seattle Slew in 1974 (La Troienne's 48th year).
Miss Carmie's line may have had fewer individual stallions at a similar point in time when compared to La Troienne, but I think we'll start to see the emergence of multi-strain Miss Carmie individuals and this pursuit may become a favorite of breeders if an influential stallion (along the order of Slew) emerges from her line.
Regards,
Pete
I believe you'll find that the inbreeding to La Troienne is a product of time and availability and this will be the case with Miss Carmie. For many years La Troienne's influence was based in her descendant daughters and inbreeding and line breeding were rare because of a limited number of breeding individuals.
Over time, stallions and an increasing number of mares contained La Troienne creating greater availability that allowed breeders to leverage her blood with multiple strains.
Miss Carmie is 40 years younger than La Troienne and that creates a chronological comparison with La Troienne in her 38th year, or 1964. How many individuals were inbred or line bred to La Troienne by 1964? Probably few (this is my supposition) with the bulk of individuals with multiple strains of La Troienne coming in the following decades. One of the first to feature an in your face La Troienne cross was Seattle Slew in 1974 (La Troienne's 48th year).
Miss Carmie's line may have had fewer individual stallions at a similar point in time when compared to La Troienne, but I think we'll start to see the emergence of multi-strain Miss Carmie individuals and this pursuit may become a favorite of breeders if an influential stallion (along the order of Slew) emerges from her line.
Regards,
Pete
That makes me like my idea of the owners sending Excellent Meeting over to Japan to be bred to Grandera even more; it's actually inbreeding to Miss Carmie's great-grandson Chief's Crown, but Miss Carmie's background is backed up by inbreeding to Alydar. And Grand Lodge's best (Sinndar) was from the Frizette line like EM's grandsire Seattle Slew.
A lot of the best males from the Miss Carmie line have been in foreign countries and they've haven't been standing in the United States or France/England/Ireland. We could see a major stallion from Excellent Meeting (I do like the breeding on her Storm Cat 2YO colt in Ireland) Tate's Creek or Sightseek if they're bred right though.
The best recent stallion prospect looks to be that German classic winner by Danehill, a very good sire of sires relative to his age. But for some weird reason he seems to be standing in Germany.
Miss Carmie did get a GI producer from Blushing Groom and her daughter a very good broodmare named Nijinsky Star from Nijinsky; so, if it's possible, those might be good mares to inbred to Miss Carmie through.
Came Home is by a good sire of sires and it's worth noting he's 5x6 to the full sisters Two Lea and Miz Clementine (Bull Lea-Two Bob, by The Porter).
-llbean
A lot of the best males from the Miss Carmie line have been in foreign countries and they've haven't been standing in the United States or France/England/Ireland. We could see a major stallion from Excellent Meeting (I do like the breeding on her Storm Cat 2YO colt in Ireland) Tate's Creek or Sightseek if they're bred right though.
The best recent stallion prospect looks to be that German classic winner by Danehill, a very good sire of sires relative to his age. But for some weird reason he seems to be standing in Germany.
Miss Carmie did get a GI producer from Blushing Groom and her daughter a very good broodmare named Nijinsky Star from Nijinsky; so, if it's possible, those might be good mares to inbred to Miss Carmie through.
Came Home is by a good sire of sires and it's worth noting he's 5x6 to the full sisters Two Lea and Miz Clementine (Bull Lea-Two Bob, by The Porter).
-llbean
Last edited by llbean on Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill from WA
- Breeder's Cup Contender
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Fredtheted
- Weanling
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This is one of the oldest families in the USA and one of the best. I tracked down the tail-female line of every winner of a Triple Crown race plus the filly Classics (KY Oaks and CCA Oaks) from 1914-2002 in researching my book American Classic Pedigrees...*Gallopade's (or *Galopade's -- you see it both ways in the records) family accounted for 16 winners, more than any other's. (The next matriarch in line is *Myrtle, with 13). The 16 were A Glitter (CCA Oaks), Affirmed (Triple Crown), Chris Evert (CCA Oaks), Class Play (CCA Oaks), Edith Cavell (CCA Oaks), First Page (KY Oaks), Florence Nightingale (CCA Oaks), Gal in a Ruckus (KY Oaks), Lil E. Tee (KY Derby), Lillian Shaw (KY Oaks), Tim Tam (KY Derby & Preakness), Twilight Tear (CCA Oaks), Two Bob (KY Oaks), Winning Colors (KY Derby), Wistful (inaugural CCA Oaks), Zev (Derby & Belmont).
*Gallopade is the tail-female ancestress of a long string of distinguished sires including Domino, Hamburg, Discovery, Fleet Nasrullah, Chief's Crown, Best Turn, and of course Affirmed. She is also the ancestress of Canadian Broodmare of the Year No Class, in turn the dam of Canadian Broodmare of the Year Classy 'n Smart, in turn the dam of Canadian Broodmare of the Year Dance Smartly. Quite a sequence! Of course, *Gallopade's female family, like so many others, has diverged quite a bt over the years, and I am eagerly awaiting my copy of Bill's book to check out the Conduit Mares tracing to her.
*Gallopade is the tail-female ancestress of a long string of distinguished sires including Domino, Hamburg, Discovery, Fleet Nasrullah, Chief's Crown, Best Turn, and of course Affirmed. She is also the ancestress of Canadian Broodmare of the Year No Class, in turn the dam of Canadian Broodmare of the Year Classy 'n Smart, in turn the dam of Canadian Broodmare of the Year Dance Smartly. Quite a sequence! Of course, *Gallopade's female family, like so many others, has diverged quite a bt over the years, and I am eagerly awaiting my copy of Bill's book to check out the Conduit Mares tracing to her.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis
Royal Dragon
Hallo,
Royal Dragon (Danehill - Carmelized by Key to the Mint) stands in Germany at the "gestuet Rottgen" (www.gestuet-roettgen or www.royal-dragon) near by Cologne.
He was Champion 3 year old miler in Germany and raced from 2 -4 years with 5 wins, but wasn't bred in my home country.
At the moment runs in Germany one more descent of Gallopade named Martillo (by Anabaa), the most famous mare in his damline is Twilight Tear.
Regards, Bettina
Royal Dragon (Danehill - Carmelized by Key to the Mint) stands in Germany at the "gestuet Rottgen" (www.gestuet-roettgen or www.royal-dragon) near by Cologne.
He was Champion 3 year old miler in Germany and raced from 2 -4 years with 5 wins, but wasn't bred in my home country.
At the moment runs in Germany one more descent of Gallopade named Martillo (by Anabaa), the most famous mare in his damline is Twilight Tear.
Regards, Bettina