In March of '04 I got a horse through Canter named Kathyspersonalhope. What a sweetheart she turned out to be and my intention was to breed her when I got her.
I made the decision to breed her to a TB with conformation I thought would suit her and keep the foal with the intention of either racing it or, if that didn't pan out selling it as a sporthorse prospect. That year did not work out for breeding due to health problems and my intention was to breed her this spring but was "talked" out of it by people who "know the biz" who said that she just had too weak a pedigree and it was a waste of money. I wanted to breed to the stallion Take Me Out, as he'd dilute all that Raise A Native/Northern Dancer my mare boasts.
So, being as I am a rookie what makes her pedigree so weak? Granted its not a superstar pedigree, but it seems to be a functional one. Her half sister produced a stakes winner. Her 1st Dam is half to stakes winner. Her Second Dam produced stakes winners etc etc. Seems to be a functional one, worthy of a 5k or so stud fee.
What is your guys thoughts?
What makes this mare's bloodlines SO bad?
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn, Diane
What makes this mare's bloodlines SO bad?
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klbash2000
- Yearling
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:41 am
- Location: central KY
It's not that she's SOOO bad. The advice not to breed was not necessarily a reflection on the mare, more a commentary on the overall economics of breeding TBs to race. Commercial pedigrees include a lot of winners, money earners and high quality runners. They are commercial because there is enough history of the family running to make it worth risking money on the foal's chances of also making money. When breeding with the bar set high (looking for a commercial pedigree: a proven combination of 2 proven families) most fall short so when breeding with the bar set low(aiming for "just" a homebred runner), the chances of success are much lower. The Take Me Out mating has things to like and if you are planning to cover the cost yourself and deal with the results yourself then don't let someone else talk you out of it. However if you are planning to try to sell it with the stud fee hanging over your head and the sale costs incurred, you are very likely to end up very unhappy when you have to take whatever pittance bid is offered for a horse that you personally value higher. To put it in perspective, I would probably value the foal between $1000 and $2000 at a yearling sale based on the page and if it had no glaring faults, maybe up to $4000 if it was a very nice individual. Either way you don't make your stud fee back. However if you run it yourself you will know every detail of it's history and it's individual strengths and weaknesses and that level of information may be worth the cost of the stud fee (and maintenance costs) to you.
Last edited by klbash2000 on Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Her dam is half to two graded stakes horses, I have seen an awful lot "WORSE"... take a look at my stallion for her if you don't want to pay a $5K stud fee (his name is Rocking Trick) and they say you can't have "too much Northern Dancer"... it is the RAN that you want to splice out.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
I gotta go with Madelyn. The mare's pedigree is fine especially since your breeding to race. My preference with a young mare would be to take her to a more established sire a la Take Me Out, but I certainly wouldn't hesitate at a shot at Madelyn's stud. We actually ran a filly off of this same tail-female family. 
Madelyn, I want to say how much I like those Tricks, but qualify it to say I know nothing of race breeding and next to nothing compared to most on this board about conformation. However, not long ago Canter NE had several Tricks, and boy did they all carry the same build, so I guess they pass their traits along, and there was something about them I really really loved. Compact build, without alot of the long back/long pasterns seen on some TBS, and which I always worry will take alot of strain cross country and jumping. Just out of curiosity, do you have any knowledge of these horses and how they fare as sport horses or sport horse sires? To me, they look like perfect sport horse sires.
That asked, now you can tell me about your boy and how he's faring.
That asked, now you can tell me about your boy and how he's faring.
Some people are like slinkies. Not really good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs.
I agree, they are all very definitely stamped. My horse looks like his sire. As does Intidab, Favorite Trick, Mazel Trick, Zavata, etc. etc. My boy has a bit of the Storm Cat look, too, though, with just a bit prettier head and ears, a bit of a crest to his neck, and beautiful mane, tail and forelock.
Maybe it's the Princequillo coming through.. but they are all certainly stamped and that is hopeful for their offspring all being stamped. I wouldn't exclude that line of horses from the sporthorse thought.. as you say they would seem ideal. My horses looks smaller than the stick says (he is 16.1) just because he is so thoroughly balanced, athletic and well made -- the proportions are "too perfect" for that big a horse.
Temperament, also, though is a biggie and Rocky is Mister Gentle, Well-mannered boy. He is a breeding stallion, yet we NEVER need a shank on him, just a lead rope. He LOVES to be groomed and worked and NEVER thinks about trying to nip or strike. He is VERY intelligent and works diligently to gain your affection and do what he perceives as his job. He is also totally sound after five years of racing. To me, he is priceless.
Maybe it's the Princequillo coming through.. but they are all certainly stamped and that is hopeful for their offspring all being stamped. I wouldn't exclude that line of horses from the sporthorse thought.. as you say they would seem ideal. My horses looks smaller than the stick says (he is 16.1) just because he is so thoroughly balanced, athletic and well made -- the proportions are "too perfect" for that big a horse.
Temperament, also, though is a biggie and Rocky is Mister Gentle, Well-mannered boy. He is a breeding stallion, yet we NEVER need a shank on him, just a lead rope. He LOVES to be groomed and worked and NEVER thinks about trying to nip or strike. He is VERY intelligent and works diligently to gain your affection and do what he perceives as his job. He is also totally sound after five years of racing. To me, he is priceless.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
My two cents worth, (and that is about what it's worth) I think your mare is worth breeding. As others have stated, you wouldn't have a sales topper foal, but could get yourself a useful runner.
I know Madelyn is going to thrash me for this, but a Rocking Trick/Kathyspersonalhope mating would get you six crosses of Native Dancer in the first seven generations. That would make me think twice before going ahead with that mating.
I tend to agree with Madalyn about a lot of Northern Dancer being a good thing, but since two of the strains of Native Dancer goes through the unsound Raise a Native. (who got his unsoundness from Native Dancer) I would try to stay away from any sire that has Northern Dancer in his pedigree.
I checked the hypo mating with Take me out. My thoughts are you would get a horse that could run all day.
As an aside, I am connected to a 3yo gelding from the same female family, (1-n) as your horse. He, American Mud) Also has Indian Nurse as his 4th dam.
I qualify the above comments by stating I base my opinions on pedigree only, as I don't know a thing on the conformation of your mare.
Those on this board that know a LOT more than me, please feel free to point out the errors in my opinion.
All the best to you,
Shergar
I know Madelyn is going to thrash me for this, but a Rocking Trick/Kathyspersonalhope mating would get you six crosses of Native Dancer in the first seven generations. That would make me think twice before going ahead with that mating.
I tend to agree with Madalyn about a lot of Northern Dancer being a good thing, but since two of the strains of Native Dancer goes through the unsound Raise a Native. (who got his unsoundness from Native Dancer) I would try to stay away from any sire that has Northern Dancer in his pedigree.
I checked the hypo mating with Take me out. My thoughts are you would get a horse that could run all day.
As an aside, I am connected to a 3yo gelding from the same female family, (1-n) as your horse. He, American Mud) Also has Indian Nurse as his 4th dam.
I qualify the above comments by stating I base my opinions on pedigree only, as I don't know a thing on the conformation of your mare.
Those on this board that know a LOT more than me, please feel free to point out the errors in my opinion.
All the best to you,
Shergar
Temperament, also, though is a biggie and Rocky is Mister Gentle, Well-mannered boy. He is a breeding stallion, yet we NEVER need a shank on him, just a lead rope. He LOVES to be groomed and worked and NEVER thinks about trying to nip or strike. He is VERY intelligent and works diligently to gain your affection and do what he perceives as his job. He is also totally sound after five years of racing. To me, he is priceless.
madelyn, you sound like a proud mama
