Poll: New stallions for 06
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Derby2004
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Poll: New stallions for 06
Well, they are falling like rain now. Just a quick pol to see which incoming stallion has the greates potential to be a great sire. When I say potential, I mean looks, pedigree, and performance. And as always comments are welcome.
I'm putting my money where my mouth is with Grand Reward. Similar cross as flavor of the month Giant's Causeway, but with a stronger first dam and better confirmation. A value at $12,500.
My sleeper, Offlee Wild from the family of Dynaformer, but that Wild Again over Seattle Slew cross may kill him. He did run as a 2yo and although he never showed as much as people expected (same could be said of Grand Reward), he was an honest hard knocking horse.
My big flop of the crop, Ghostzapper. Heavily overpriced and not terribly sound. Half brother is an okay sire with confirmation problems. Sire is sort of hit or miss. No thanks!
My sleeper, Offlee Wild from the family of Dynaformer, but that Wild Again over Seattle Slew cross may kill him. He did run as a 2yo and although he never showed as much as people expected (same could be said of Grand Reward), he was an honest hard knocking horse.
My big flop of the crop, Ghostzapper. Heavily overpriced and not terribly sound. Half brother is an okay sire with confirmation problems. Sire is sort of hit or miss. No thanks!
Last edited by austique on Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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StrawberryFelidos
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(Rant)
Why on earth would anyone pay $200,000 for an unproven first-year sire when his daddy (who is proven) stands for $125,000 ($75,000 cheaper with a proven record)???????:roll: Somebody went psycho with the math, there. Only the rich and slightly kooky should take that gamble.
Hey, didn't Point Given stand for $150,000 in his first year? How did that deal turn out?
I see that his fee has dropped like a rock since then. Not to say that Ghostzapper won't turn out to be a good sire, but to instantly assume so without any evidence (not even one crop) and charge the hell out of breeders just seems conniving, like something a devilish lawyer would devise (:twisted:). Nah, worse- a psychotic car sealesman!
Why on earth would anyone pay $200,000 for an unproven first-year sire when his daddy (who is proven) stands for $125,000 ($75,000 cheaper with a proven record)???????:roll: Somebody went psycho with the math, there. Only the rich and slightly kooky should take that gamble.
Hey, didn't Point Given stand for $150,000 in his first year? How did that deal turn out?
I see that his fee has dropped like a rock since then. Not to say that Ghostzapper won't turn out to be a good sire, but to instantly assume so without any evidence (not even one crop) and charge the hell out of breeders just seems conniving, like something a devilish lawyer would devise (:twisted:). Nah, worse- a psychotic car sealesman!
Far out!
We seem to be having the same problem over here except it is only with sons of Danehill and now sons of his super son - Redoutes Choice.
I could not even begin to contemplate a mating with a stallion that a) did not win a G1 (around 1600m) as an older horse and b) had an unproven female sire producing line.
Can't do the poll thing as I don't have time to check their pedigrees but still, your boys are dropping like flies. Serious reality check to follow......
I just hope we don't follow after you. Remember, we have the richest 2r old race in the world ie Golden Slipper and that, is not a good thing.
We seem to be having the same problem over here except it is only with sons of Danehill and now sons of his super son - Redoutes Choice.
I could not even begin to contemplate a mating with a stallion that a) did not win a G1 (around 1600m) as an older horse and b) had an unproven female sire producing line.
Can't do the poll thing as I don't have time to check their pedigrees but still, your boys are dropping like flies. Serious reality check to follow......
I just hope we don't follow after you. Remember, we have the richest 2r old race in the world ie Golden Slipper and that, is not a good thing.
I cant belive I am the lone voter in Roman Rulers corner so far. He has my key ingredient in a stallion prospect in having brilliant miler speed. He was a G2 winner at 2 & earned a 106 beyer at 2. He is a half to the brilliant and successful sire El Corredor & from the same sire line in being by FuPeg. I think behind Ghostzapper, Roman Ruler displayed more pure talent or had more pure talent than any other horse going to stud in 06 & I think he was best at the most important stallion making distances of 7/8 to a mile. I do like Roman Ruler tons & at 30k he will be rather well recieved even though he did not end his racing career on a high note, its there. For a couple of kinda dark horse picks I like Purge & Badge of Silver as one or both may gain even more popularity tommorrow as I expect both to run huge in the Cigar Mile.
hi guys
The question asked was "Which new stallion for '06 has the greatest potential to be a great sire?" The way I read it...much of that potential relates to many factors...including the ever so important opportunity.
Certainly there are some very interesting young stallion prospects on the list...and a good case could probably be made for each and every one. I've seen (in the flesh) but a few on the list (thus far)...regardless...here goes...
Clearly, when it comes to past performance...Ghostzapper proved (from my perspective anyway) that he was the best and most talented and versatile (6f, 8f and 10furlongs) racehorse we have seen in years. He was a Monster (intended to be a compliment) racehorse as far as I'm concerned. As for potential, clearly I expect that Ghostzapper will get (and deservedly so) a HUGE opportunity...probably the best book of quality mares of any stallions on the list. I expect that partners Stronach and Jackson will offer the Ghostzappers the best possible chances to succeed as racehorses. Regardless, Awesome Again (Ghostzapper's sire) is yet unproven as a sire of sires, and might prove to be a hurdle or obstacle in 'Zapper's quest for sire success.
Certainly Awesome Again (sire of Ghostzapper)...Grand Slam (sire of Limehouse)...Fusaichi Pegasus (sire of Roman Ruler)...and Stormy Atlantic (sire of Indian Ocean) have to prove their worth as sires of sires. Certainly some received far more opportunity (including quality of mares in their books) than others. Arguably Stormy Atlantic received the least opportunity...and FuPeg the best...but Grand Slam and Awesome Again also received excellent opportunities (although between those two the volume certainly leaned to Grand Slam's benefit). That said, and opportunities aside, I believe that prowess as a potential successful sire of sires (not particularly marketing or advertising appeal) is in the following order...1/Stormy Atlantic, 2/Grand Slam, 3/Fusaichi Pegasus, then 4/Awesome Again. It might be a toss up among the first three...but I'd guess that Awesome again is a distant fourth.
Obviously Roman Ruler will have an excellent opportunity (he's at a very good farm and will be well managed and promoted)...he should have success as a sire...but he is NOT my #1 choice in the greatest potential to be a great sire category.
Moving on to Saint Liam...he was a wonderful racehorse. He's a safe bet to be selected 2005 Horse of the Year, and to receive a big opportunity in the breeding shed. Regardless...he is by a sire (Saint Ballado) that leaves me cold cold cold as a sire of sires. Consider this...Straight Man (by Saint Ballado) seems (so far) to be nothing short of a slug (considering his abundant opportunity)...Flame Thrower (by Saint Ballado) seems to be in a deep sleep (maybe he'll wake up)...Sweetsouthernsaint (by Saint Ballado) seemed to show signs but just doesn't seem to get over the hump and get top winners at the major racing venues. As for Yankee Victor (by Saint Ballado), considering the excellent opportunity he received...it's probably not unfair to consider him to be a significant disappointment.
Saint Liam (by Saint Ballado) will have to show me something (as a sire) before I can possibly even consider jumping on his bandwagon. Sons of Saint Ballado as sires...OUCH (at least so far).
Eddington is a grand-looking son of Unbridled, and he's arguably a lot of horse...but I also expect (for the most part) he'll get the older, later kind...but I would consider him for the right kind of mare.
Limehouse was a very nice (and early) racehorse. He offers a lot on paper...but physically (from the perspective as a sire) I find him to be too lightly made for my taste. Enough said.
Grand Reward concerns me to the extent that he might lean too strongly in the direction of being a turf sire. His second dam is by Northfields...that coupled with the fact that he did most of his racing across the pond raises some questions (as far as I'm concerned) as to what surface most of his offspring might tend to prefer. I personally am attracted to a young sire that clearly LOVED DIRT surfaces in North America. I believe that's often key to potential as a successful sire in North America. To that extent, I'm not so sure about Grand Reward (although he did win a good race over the dirt at Oaklawn).
Consolidator won the G1 Breeders' Futurity and was a $1.2mil+- yearling. I haven't seen him with my own eyes yet but I'm told he has a very good hip and shoulder. His dam is by Crystal Glitters and his second dam is by Nodouble, names that don't instill confidence (in me anyway) when considering potential as a sire. He might be just fine...but I'm not convinced (right now anyway) that he has the greatest potential (of this group).
As for Offlee Wild, he's out of a Seattle Slew daughter that's out of a His Majesty (Andover Way), but he's by Wild Again which raises a red flag for me. That being said, if Offlee Wild looks as grand and handsome as Wild Rush (also by Wild Again) I'd find him interesting...but other than that, Wild Again is not my idea of a compelling sire of sires.
As for Indian Ocean...I expect that he could very well be the young stallion (of those on the list) that has the potential to be a great sire.
From my perspective Indian Ocean is an OUTSTANDING individual (one good look and it's clear)...he has a BIG pedigree...was brilliant when winning at 6 1/2 furlongs in 1:14 and change...was a graded stakes-winner at a mile and a sixteenth (over Buzzards Bay and others)...was never worse than 3rd...and did it ALL on the dirt. For those (and other) reasons I sense that Indian Ocean could be a super-star that emerges. I am convinced he was a genuine G1 caliber horse that was injured before getting the opportunity to win one...as a result he goes to Florida and stands for $4,000.
Indian Ocean is by a beautifully-bred young sire (Stormy Atlantic) that also started his career at stud in Florida (and now stands at Hill n Dale in Lex). He's a sire that I believe has it in him to be an important sire of sires.
As far as I'm concerned, Indian Ocean is a potentially outstanding sire...I expect it's just a matter of time. Furthermore he is the only young prospect on the list that is starting his career in Florida. I expect that the pool of mares in the sunshine state will offer an opportunity for this young guy to show what HE can do...as a sire.
It seems like every year or two a stallion that started his career in Florida exposes something very special (in the way of siring quality runners). Usually those very good runners emerge from (what many might consider to be) lesser mares and/or very limited opportunities. Ultimately (in those cases) a big deal (along with plenty of cash) usually shows up, and the sire makes the move to Kentucky. Some examples of those stallions that started in Florida then (after a degree of success) moved on to Ky are...Successful Appeal, Songandaprayer, Stormy Atlantic, Saint Ballado, Northern Afleet, Kris S, Mr Prospector etc etc etc. Arguably ALL of them started with mares from the Florida pool...before getting HUGE opportunities that the move to Kentucky offered.
I would guess it might be just a matter of time before Indian Ocean struts his stuff (as a sire) and joins the list of successful Florida sires that ultimately ended up in the Bluegrass. He looks to potentially be very special (from my perspective).
Respectfully
The question asked was "Which new stallion for '06 has the greatest potential to be a great sire?" The way I read it...much of that potential relates to many factors...including the ever so important opportunity.
Certainly there are some very interesting young stallion prospects on the list...and a good case could probably be made for each and every one. I've seen (in the flesh) but a few on the list (thus far)...regardless...here goes...
Clearly, when it comes to past performance...Ghostzapper proved (from my perspective anyway) that he was the best and most talented and versatile (6f, 8f and 10furlongs) racehorse we have seen in years. He was a Monster (intended to be a compliment) racehorse as far as I'm concerned. As for potential, clearly I expect that Ghostzapper will get (and deservedly so) a HUGE opportunity...probably the best book of quality mares of any stallions on the list. I expect that partners Stronach and Jackson will offer the Ghostzappers the best possible chances to succeed as racehorses. Regardless, Awesome Again (Ghostzapper's sire) is yet unproven as a sire of sires, and might prove to be a hurdle or obstacle in 'Zapper's quest for sire success.
Certainly Awesome Again (sire of Ghostzapper)...Grand Slam (sire of Limehouse)...Fusaichi Pegasus (sire of Roman Ruler)...and Stormy Atlantic (sire of Indian Ocean) have to prove their worth as sires of sires. Certainly some received far more opportunity (including quality of mares in their books) than others. Arguably Stormy Atlantic received the least opportunity...and FuPeg the best...but Grand Slam and Awesome Again also received excellent opportunities (although between those two the volume certainly leaned to Grand Slam's benefit). That said, and opportunities aside, I believe that prowess as a potential successful sire of sires (not particularly marketing or advertising appeal) is in the following order...1/Stormy Atlantic, 2/Grand Slam, 3/Fusaichi Pegasus, then 4/Awesome Again. It might be a toss up among the first three...but I'd guess that Awesome again is a distant fourth.
Obviously Roman Ruler will have an excellent opportunity (he's at a very good farm and will be well managed and promoted)...he should have success as a sire...but he is NOT my #1 choice in the greatest potential to be a great sire category.
Moving on to Saint Liam...he was a wonderful racehorse. He's a safe bet to be selected 2005 Horse of the Year, and to receive a big opportunity in the breeding shed. Regardless...he is by a sire (Saint Ballado) that leaves me cold cold cold as a sire of sires. Consider this...Straight Man (by Saint Ballado) seems (so far) to be nothing short of a slug (considering his abundant opportunity)...Flame Thrower (by Saint Ballado) seems to be in a deep sleep (maybe he'll wake up)...Sweetsouthernsaint (by Saint Ballado) seemed to show signs but just doesn't seem to get over the hump and get top winners at the major racing venues. As for Yankee Victor (by Saint Ballado), considering the excellent opportunity he received...it's probably not unfair to consider him to be a significant disappointment.
Saint Liam (by Saint Ballado) will have to show me something (as a sire) before I can possibly even consider jumping on his bandwagon. Sons of Saint Ballado as sires...OUCH (at least so far).
Eddington is a grand-looking son of Unbridled, and he's arguably a lot of horse...but I also expect (for the most part) he'll get the older, later kind...but I would consider him for the right kind of mare.
Limehouse was a very nice (and early) racehorse. He offers a lot on paper...but physically (from the perspective as a sire) I find him to be too lightly made for my taste. Enough said.
Grand Reward concerns me to the extent that he might lean too strongly in the direction of being a turf sire. His second dam is by Northfields...that coupled with the fact that he did most of his racing across the pond raises some questions (as far as I'm concerned) as to what surface most of his offspring might tend to prefer. I personally am attracted to a young sire that clearly LOVED DIRT surfaces in North America. I believe that's often key to potential as a successful sire in North America. To that extent, I'm not so sure about Grand Reward (although he did win a good race over the dirt at Oaklawn).
Consolidator won the G1 Breeders' Futurity and was a $1.2mil+- yearling. I haven't seen him with my own eyes yet but I'm told he has a very good hip and shoulder. His dam is by Crystal Glitters and his second dam is by Nodouble, names that don't instill confidence (in me anyway) when considering potential as a sire. He might be just fine...but I'm not convinced (right now anyway) that he has the greatest potential (of this group).
As for Offlee Wild, he's out of a Seattle Slew daughter that's out of a His Majesty (Andover Way), but he's by Wild Again which raises a red flag for me. That being said, if Offlee Wild looks as grand and handsome as Wild Rush (also by Wild Again) I'd find him interesting...but other than that, Wild Again is not my idea of a compelling sire of sires.
As for Indian Ocean...I expect that he could very well be the young stallion (of those on the list) that has the potential to be a great sire.
From my perspective Indian Ocean is an OUTSTANDING individual (one good look and it's clear)...he has a BIG pedigree...was brilliant when winning at 6 1/2 furlongs in 1:14 and change...was a graded stakes-winner at a mile and a sixteenth (over Buzzards Bay and others)...was never worse than 3rd...and did it ALL on the dirt. For those (and other) reasons I sense that Indian Ocean could be a super-star that emerges. I am convinced he was a genuine G1 caliber horse that was injured before getting the opportunity to win one...as a result he goes to Florida and stands for $4,000.
Indian Ocean is by a beautifully-bred young sire (Stormy Atlantic) that also started his career at stud in Florida (and now stands at Hill n Dale in Lex). He's a sire that I believe has it in him to be an important sire of sires.
As far as I'm concerned, Indian Ocean is a potentially outstanding sire...I expect it's just a matter of time. Furthermore he is the only young prospect on the list that is starting his career in Florida. I expect that the pool of mares in the sunshine state will offer an opportunity for this young guy to show what HE can do...as a sire.
It seems like every year or two a stallion that started his career in Florida exposes something very special (in the way of siring quality runners). Usually those very good runners emerge from (what many might consider to be) lesser mares and/or very limited opportunities. Ultimately (in those cases) a big deal (along with plenty of cash) usually shows up, and the sire makes the move to Kentucky. Some examples of those stallions that started in Florida then (after a degree of success) moved on to Ky are...Successful Appeal, Songandaprayer, Stormy Atlantic, Saint Ballado, Northern Afleet, Kris S, Mr Prospector etc etc etc. Arguably ALL of them started with mares from the Florida pool...before getting HUGE opportunities that the move to Kentucky offered.
I would guess it might be just a matter of time before Indian Ocean struts his stuff (as a sire) and joins the list of successful Florida sires that ultimately ended up in the Bluegrass. He looks to potentially be very special (from my perspective).
Respectfully
FYI: The Blood Horse website is hosting a chat with Alan Porter about the new sires of 2006; it's this Wednesday, Dec. 14th at noon, EST.
HorseHats presents
Talkin' Horses with Alan Porter
Wednesday Dec 14
Noon - 1 pm (Eastern/9 am Pacific)
Join the internationally-renowned pedigree analyst as he fields your questions about the stallion Class of 2006.
HorseHats presents
Talkin' Horses with Alan Porter
Wednesday Dec 14
Noon - 1 pm (Eastern/9 am Pacific)
Join the internationally-renowned pedigree analyst as he fields your questions about the stallion Class of 2006.
I would have to say Roman Ruler would have the best chance
Roman Ruler is a Grade I winner by Kentucky Derby winner Fusaichi Pegasus who is by the great Mr. Prospector and out of a full sister to Preakness winner Pine Bluff. Roman Ruler is out of a multiple Grade I producing mare who is also the dam of Grade I winner El Corredor. He definitely has the pedigree.
Keith
Keith
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summerhorse
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I agree that Ghostzapper was a freak on the racehorse but he was also an terribly unsound freak and while I think he will get a few freakishly fast racehorses I suspect he is going to get a whole lot of unsound horses who never make it to the track or break down before showing what they can do. His sire is no slouch and a proven commodity, can't imagine why anyone would chose Ghostzapper over AA.
Every mighty oak was once an acorn that stood its ground.
2006 sires
I think we left off one that truely has a good chance to be a sire:
POLLARD'S VISION
He has the Carson City speed, but carried it around two turns. What a warrior. We hope to breed several mares to him this year. And, he's a grand looking individual.
POLLARD'S VISION
He has the Carson City speed, but carried it around two turns. What a warrior. We hope to breed several mares to him this year. And, he's a grand looking individual.
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