I am not interested in mere blood relationships because I know that every TB must have a sire and dam, and four grand-parents.
What matters most to me is not just who they were but what they were and how and why were they were produced.
For example a pedigree is useless to you unless you know how to identify the power that dominates the pedigree and rules the family.
You must also be able to recognise the lines of breeding that really matter, and those that do not, and detect where and how the vital cross was brought in.
However none of us is likely to recognise or extract genuine and valuable wisdom from a pedigree, unless we know what to look for and what value to place on it when we see it.
To be continued later.
HOW TO READ A PEDIGREE
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louis finochio
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HOW TO READ A PEDIGREE
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
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louis finochio
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Part 2 HOW TO READ A PEDIGREE
It is unnecessary for any pedigre to reach back further that the g-g parents.
Top performances of TB in the 5th, 6th and 7th generation back would have little or no bearing on the last generation. Too many TB are admired because they had a brillant ancestor some 5 or 6 generations back.
When studying a pedigree we must always search for the cross. I am referring , of course, to pedigrees of line-bred families.
If you line-bred you must also use a cross from time to time and it is important for the buyer to know just where and when it was introduced.
The cross is always made with a mare, never with a stallion.
No good line-breeder would bring in an unrelated stallion into his breeding program. Secondly we can see that the cross was made on the Tail.
A TB breeder with a good line-bred family will always think twice before he tampers with his good Male Line.
Thus the Head of the pedigree, which is always the Male Line, will be on of the closely line-bred TB from son to son.
The cross which must be a mare, is brought in only across the Tail or female line.
The Tail Grand Dam is the most important TB in the breeding subsequent to the foundation stock. As I have stated before, there is only one reason for any breeder to use a cross and that is to inject hybrid vigor and soundness into your breeding stock.
The effect of close line-breeding is to improve the TB performances at the cost of hybrid vigor. It is this shot in the arm of vigor of a line-bred family which should spark off the breeding of one or more champions.
Top performances of TB in the 5th, 6th and 7th generation back would have little or no bearing on the last generation. Too many TB are admired because they had a brillant ancestor some 5 or 6 generations back.
When studying a pedigree we must always search for the cross. I am referring , of course, to pedigrees of line-bred families.
If you line-bred you must also use a cross from time to time and it is important for the buyer to know just where and when it was introduced.
The cross is always made with a mare, never with a stallion.
No good line-breeder would bring in an unrelated stallion into his breeding program. Secondly we can see that the cross was made on the Tail.
A TB breeder with a good line-bred family will always think twice before he tampers with his good Male Line.
Thus the Head of the pedigree, which is always the Male Line, will be on of the closely line-bred TB from son to son.
The cross which must be a mare, is brought in only across the Tail or female line.
The Tail Grand Dam is the most important TB in the breeding subsequent to the foundation stock. As I have stated before, there is only one reason for any breeder to use a cross and that is to inject hybrid vigor and soundness into your breeding stock.
The effect of close line-breeding is to improve the TB performances at the cost of hybrid vigor. It is this shot in the arm of vigor of a line-bred family which should spark off the breeding of one or more champions.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
I appreciate your wisdom and expertise and your willingness to disseminate knowledge. You are one of many TB forum members I have grown to respect. So do not leave us in suspense too long 
I'll give you Dealin Aces pedigree to disect, study, hypo-mate to an up and coming stallion, + & - traits, etc. She is 16.1 hh, 4 years old bred to Rocking Trick for an '06 foal, DA has won 13k and won 2 races, won at 5 1/2 and 8 F. I intend to use her as a broodmare and would like your expertise on potential stallions for '07. I am eager to read your post. I presume other forum members are awaiting your response. Thanks in advance
I'll give you Dealin Aces pedigree to disect, study, hypo-mate to an up and coming stallion, + & - traits, etc. She is 16.1 hh, 4 years old bred to Rocking Trick for an '06 foal, DA has won 13k and won 2 races, won at 5 1/2 and 8 F. I intend to use her as a broodmare and would like your expertise on potential stallions for '07. I am eager to read your post. I presume other forum members are awaiting your response. Thanks in advance-
louis finochio
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louis finochio
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Barricade TB Stallion - Lifetime leading sires by money won (Az.); Runners-39; Starts-492; Winners-30; Races won-80; 2nds-71; 3rds-51; Money earned-$555,485; %Wnrs/Rnrs-76.9; Avg.PerRunner-$14,243; Some winners are: Cajun Pepper, Lute Oatson, Barricaded, Barricade Point, Triple Cade, DA (Subject), etc. I don't have access to the APR, but I can research the internet. Let me know Louis if I can sift through this exciting assignment with you. It just makes more sense to apply your wisdom through hands on learning experience with your guidance. I realize there are myriad of theories out in the horse world, but I am looking for your expertise. Your pigeon breeding has attracted my attention along with your vast TB knowledge. And FOS (and others) is always an excellent resource and hopefully he can assist us. Thanks, Rick
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louis finochio
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vineyridge
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Louis, when you do your research, do you also include thoughts based on the coefficient of inbreeding?
Seems to me that if you have so many lines of a particular horse, no matter how far back, that it is the equivalent of a gg parent or other horse in a 5 generation pedigree, then you have to consider it for genetic pass alongs, especially if it shows up in many different lines.
For instance--if Phalaris shows up 25 times in a six or seven generation pedigree, that's almost the equivalent of a grandparent or gg hhhhhparent.
Seems to me that if you have so many lines of a particular horse, no matter how far back, that it is the equivalent of a gg parent or other horse in a 5 generation pedigree, then you have to consider it for genetic pass alongs, especially if it shows up in many different lines.
For instance--if Phalaris shows up 25 times in a six or seven generation pedigree, that's almost the equivalent of a grandparent or gg hhhhhparent.
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louis finochio
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To Vineridge: The term in-breeding means to me father daughter---mother son---grandmother grandson---brother sister.
I only trace the pedigrees of any sire line 5 generations back. As any farther back is watering down the insignifiance of the sire line.
I only trace the pedigrees of any sire line 5 generations back. As any farther back is watering down the insignifiance of the sire line.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
It waters down the significance of the tail female line also as a mare only passes 0ne-half of her genes to her daughters as the daughter and the dam get one-half of her genes from the sire which which recieved one-half of his genes from a differient dam line.
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
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Bill from WA
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The strictly mathematical evaluations used in Mendalian theory have been in question in recent years. There is a whole lot more going on according to modern genetic science. Here is a link to an article that examines a segment of those studies.
http://www.ucalgary.ca/UofC/eduweb/virt ... print.html
Bill
http://www.ucalgary.ca/UofC/eduweb/virt ... print.html
Bill
Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is like a broken winged bird that cannot fly.
Langston Hughes
Langston Hughes
griff wrote:It waters down the significance of the tail female line also as a mare only passes 0ne-half of her genes to her daughters as the daughter and the dam get one-half of her genes from the sire which which recieved one-half of his genes from a differient dam line.
OK, here's a question I've been pondering about this...
Supposing you breed to a stallion that has the same female family number/letter designation as your mare, and it's a stronger line of that family in terms of producers. But, the common ancestry split off about 10 generations back...
... do you gain anything by doing this, as in, are you strengthening the pedigree through combining those two female lines? Or are the common ancestors SO far removed, that it no longer matters anyway...??
Just curious...
