A rarity: Two modern Gray sires not coming via Le Samaritain

Jorge · Postby **Jorge** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:42 pm

Dear Collaborators,

Want to see a curiosity? Read this:

The following two gray Uruguayan sires owe their gray color, not to The Tetrarch, nor to his sire, nor to his grandsire (i.e. Le Samaritain), as everybody else, but from the very exiguous gray lineages of Master Robert. See for yourself:

THE FIRST CASE IS: AMODEO (URU) (gray H 1985):

01. by Snow Gabin (gr H 1977)
02. by Otoñal (gr H 1970)
03. by Gabin (gr H 1963)
04. from Ninon (gr M 1951)
05. by Tonto (gr H 1938)
06. from Pamplina (gr M 1927)
07. from Whirlanta (gr M 1918)
08. from Palanta (gr M 1912)
09. by Pippermint (gr H 1899)
10. from Mostaza (gr M 1895)
11. from Oxford Mixture (gr M 1870)
12. from Irish Belle (gr M 1859)
13. from Colleen Dhas (gr M 1842)
14. by Rust (gr H 1830)
15. by MASTER ROBERT (gr H 1811)
16. from Spinster (gr M 1805)
17. from Sir Peter Mare (gr M 1797)
18. from Bab (gr M 1787)
19. from Speranza (gr M 1778)
20. from Regulus Mare (gr M 1760)
21. from Carab Mare (gr M 1750)
22. by Crab (gr H 1722)
23. by Alcocks Arabian (gr H 1700)
-----------------------

THE SECOND CASE IS: DEMOSTENES (URU) (gray H 1981)

01. by Legendario (gr H 1972)
02. by Gabin (gr H 1963) (Ditto-->AMODEO's great-grand sire).
-----------------------
Enjoy.

Blessings,

summerhorse · Postby **summerhorse** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:12 pm

Hey that is interesting! Are there others from this or different lines?

mumtaz · Postby **mumtaz** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:49 pm

Wow, that is really neat! Interesting that they both go back to the Alcock Arabian (just like The Tetrarch's family). I wonder why that particular grey line survives as the source of grey in the TB when virtually no other (that I know of) does. Maybe his grey get were just faster. Pretty neat whatever the case.

Derring · Postby **Derring** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:55 pm

I took a look at your website---very interesting!

So Naevus was a splash white?

http://www.pedigreequery.com/naevus

What about New Trieste? Sabino or Splashed White? Or neither?

http://www.turfexpress.com/stud/horses/ ... trieste.ws

summerhorse · Postby **summerhorse** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:56 am

New trieste looks sabino and splash, Naevus looks sabino to me. Hard to say without seeing their parents and grandparents too but it is hard to find a TB who is NOT sabino...

Jorge · Postby **Jorge** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:27 am

NAEVUS and NEW TRIESTE are both sabino. Remember there are several fashions within the sabino phenotype. New Trieste has a beautiful face eh?
Nice cases.

Blessings,

Derring · Postby **Derring** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:10 am

He does. He looks even better in person. Good temperment, interested in everything, and over 17 hands tall!

I haven't always liked all the white but I find myself interested in it now. Probably the fault of this forum (JK)! I went to the Fasig Tipton mixed sale yesterday and saw a beautiful chestnut that had white stockings on his back legs. But then the white continued up the front of the back legs past the hocks but not on the back of those legs.
He was something. I spotted him in the paddock---he just stood out from the others.

It's a good thing I didn't (on purpose) bring any money with me!

mumtaz · Postby **mumtaz** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:46 am

Derring wrote:I took a look at your website---very interesting!

So Naevus was a splash white?
http://www.pedigreequery.com/naevus

What about New Trieste? Sabino or Splashed White? Or neither?
http://www.turfexpress.com/stud/horses/ ... trieste.ws

Like Summerhorse said, both Naevus and New Trieste are sabinos. Sabino is just about everywhere in TBs.

Splash white, on the other hand, is very, very rare so far. The only well-documented cases are the NZ mare Hey What The and her 2 fillies by Go Corp, Whatever and Bubba. Donna at True Colors owns Whatever now, and she has some awesome pictures up on her website:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColour ... tever.html

I updated my page with that info as well (finally), but my server is down at the moment, so the pages probably won't be viewable until tomorrow morning. I have heard of a a few potential splash whites spotted here in the US, but I don't have names or pictures for any of them, so I don't have any concrete proof of other splashes.

summerhorse · Postby **summerhorse** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:03 pm

It is being thought (no proof of course) that splash exists in very low levels and a minimal form in the TB (and probably needs sabino to boost it up). I think the other thought to be splash was a mare called blue Eyed Angel (was in Canada maybe??) She died. Splash is certainly pretty prevalent in the Arab (albeit also in minimal form, have YET to see a true body pattern splash arab although some with big body patches but they were also sabino). But of course almost all TBs have sabino and apparently a few frames (that also look awfully sabino! :wink:

)

camohn · Postby **camohn** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:17 pm

Off the topics of grays now but to take the turn of the above thread check out My Blue Eyed Baby (pic here in the database). Bald face/2 blue eyes.

Tairaterces · Postby **Tairaterces** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:37 pm

Hi Jorge,

There is a new book out called "Grey Magic", The Enigma of the Grey Thoroughbred by Alan Yuill Walker (ISBN 1-905156-15-4, Highdown in England). I just got it from Powell's online.

In it they say the father of all greys is a horse called Master Robert (foaled 1811) . . . . . haven't started reading it yet but will do so this weekend.

Best,
Tairaterces

Jorge · Postby **Jorge** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:00 am

Dear Tairaterces,

Thank you very much for this new information. Hmmm, looks interesting, please tell us your opinion on the book after completing it. Sounds promising.

As per Master Robert, you are right. Indeed, he is not the rarity here, for all grays descend from him. The rarity is finding a gray lineage not owing its grayness to the one-line branch of The Tetrarch/Roi Herode/Le Sancy/ Le Samaritain, all of which constitutes a family. That's the rarity! In other words, aside from these two Uruguayan sires, it seems certain that every gray in the world owes its grayness to that particular branch
(TT/RH/LS/LS).

In fact, lets go further back, in reality, the paramount ancestor of all gray Thoroughbreds is BAB, who reunited two gray lineages under her name.

Blessings,

Jorge · Postby **Jorge** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:06 am

I am referring to the following
BAB (gray M 1787), who reunites within her gene pool two cornerstone gray lineages.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/bab

Jorge · Postby **Jorge** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:34 am

This is the super-overwhelming gray source from which 99.9999% percent of all grays owe their grayness. Out of this huge number, about 85% percent, or perhaps more, owe it solely to the great, The Tetrarch.

See for yourself:

00. Practically every gray sire or mare
01. by The Tetrarch (gray H 1911) (***)
02. by Roi Herode (gray H 1904) (***)
03. by Le Samaritain (gray H 1895) (***)
04. by Le Sancy (gray H 1884) (***)
05. from Gem of Gems (gray M 1873)
06. by Stathconan (gray H 1863)
07. from Souvenir (gray M 1856)
08. by Chanticleer (gray H 1843)
09. from Whim (gray M 1832)
10. by Drone (gray H 1823).
11. by MASTER ROBERT (gray H 1811)

Best Wishes,