Was at Tatts in Ireland yesterday and got chatting to a guy about foals. Was looking at some rather well bred foals who looked like crap. I mean if you want good money for your foal, please feed them, but this is Ireland so nothing suprises me. Most were probably just weaned 2 days before the sale. Anyway, I told the guy about my sporthorse foal and how I got serious money for him the other day. So we were talking about AI and other things and he said he had a TB mare who was bred, twinned, flushed and a recipient mare was used and both embryos and now be carried to term and he will register which everone is the best specimen and probably the colt if there is a colt and filly. I looked at him with my mouth wide open and utterly speechless.(Highly unusal for me). Now maybe he was pulling my leg, and I probably shouldn't even be writing this, but Oh My God, are people doing this? Talk about your irresponsible breeding. Stranger than fiction.
teb
You won't believe this
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yukidragon
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If true, wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Thing is, twins (rare though they may be... at least as far as we know) is one of the things that has always made me stop and wonder WHY embryo transfer isn't allowed (ignoring for a moment the jagoffs who would exploit it unethically)
I've always been drawn to the 'what-if' game and *I* would be the type of person who would always wonder "what if I pinched the wrong twin?"
I've often wondered just how often twins get pinched, and how good the one that wasn't turns out to be.
Think about it.
What if Rock Hard Ten had been a twin ... what if HE'D been the one pinched? Or how much better may the twin have been?
Thing is, twins (rare though they may be... at least as far as we know) is one of the things that has always made me stop and wonder WHY embryo transfer isn't allowed (ignoring for a moment the jagoffs who would exploit it unethically)
I've always been drawn to the 'what-if' game and *I* would be the type of person who would always wonder "what if I pinched the wrong twin?"
I've often wondered just how often twins get pinched, and how good the one that wasn't turns out to be.
Think about it.
What if Rock Hard Ten had been a twin ... what if HE'D been the one pinched? Or how much better may the twin have been?
Regarding twins, you might sleep better after you pinch one if you think they happened due to cellular division and therefore were identical. Identical -- they are both exactly the same so it doesn't matter which one is pinched. These are classified as maternal twins.
With fraternal twins, it is a bit different, but typically it is still only one egg divided between two sperm and there is not much chance that one will be significantly better than the other.
Embryo transfer presents a different set of market forces. It is one that has hit the Quarter Horse world right in the solar plexus. There is already the rampant overbreeding of stallions occurring to dilute the prices of the offspring. If embryo transfer were permitted, a mare could have many offspring each year as well. The numbers get mind boggling. Also, fillies could be "bred", transplanted, and continue racing, which is one of the reasons the Quarter Horse folk started it in the first place. So let's say Ashado gets booked for '06.... to Storm Cat, AP Indy, Fusaichi Pegasus, etc. etc. etc. They breed her and transplant seven fetuses, by seven different stallions and gosh, good old Ashado is even left with nothing to do so they might put her back in training. The market is not going to pay nearly as much for each of those babies as it would have for just one. More importantly they bump six other mares' offspring out of the catalog. Talk about restricting the gene pool. It is the same problem with AI. What if Mr. Prospector had been one of those horses whose semen didn't ship well? It has reached a point in the Quarter Horse market where there are thousands of mediocre horses out there by the "star" stallions because all it took was a couple of straws. And there are so many foals "out of" the good mares that the prices have sunk to the floor.
Mare owners have enough to contend with. The farms shuffle the stallions like cards at this time of the year, and "deal" them out, some to the nether regions of the world, socking last year's breeders in the eye. Or drop stud fees, dealing a blow to last year's breeders. Or Both. So many of the big farms now are Not about breeding, just All about money. They get a horse, set his fee in the sky, rake it in for two years and then wham! They got their cash so they can bump him along. There is NO integrity. Any old "rat" mare can be approved for some of them, provided she comes with a check for the full breeding fee. There is no effort made to help the mare owner safeguard the value of his foal.
With fraternal twins, it is a bit different, but typically it is still only one egg divided between two sperm and there is not much chance that one will be significantly better than the other.
Embryo transfer presents a different set of market forces. It is one that has hit the Quarter Horse world right in the solar plexus. There is already the rampant overbreeding of stallions occurring to dilute the prices of the offspring. If embryo transfer were permitted, a mare could have many offspring each year as well. The numbers get mind boggling. Also, fillies could be "bred", transplanted, and continue racing, which is one of the reasons the Quarter Horse folk started it in the first place. So let's say Ashado gets booked for '06.... to Storm Cat, AP Indy, Fusaichi Pegasus, etc. etc. etc. They breed her and transplant seven fetuses, by seven different stallions and gosh, good old Ashado is even left with nothing to do so they might put her back in training. The market is not going to pay nearly as much for each of those babies as it would have for just one. More importantly they bump six other mares' offspring out of the catalog. Talk about restricting the gene pool. It is the same problem with AI. What if Mr. Prospector had been one of those horses whose semen didn't ship well? It has reached a point in the Quarter Horse market where there are thousands of mediocre horses out there by the "star" stallions because all it took was a couple of straws. And there are so many foals "out of" the good mares that the prices have sunk to the floor.
Mare owners have enough to contend with. The farms shuffle the stallions like cards at this time of the year, and "deal" them out, some to the nether regions of the world, socking last year's breeders in the eye. Or drop stud fees, dealing a blow to last year's breeders. Or Both. So many of the big farms now are Not about breeding, just All about money. They get a horse, set his fee in the sky, rake it in for two years and then wham! They got their cash so they can bump him along. There is NO integrity. Any old "rat" mare can be approved for some of them, provided she comes with a check for the full breeding fee. There is no effort made to help the mare owner safeguard the value of his foal.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
madelyn
i question your "one egg and two sperm" theory.
I don't know how many chromosome horses have but if human fraternal twins came fron from one egg and two sperm you'd get something, and it would not be human, with 72 or mabe 36 instead of 48 chromosome.
an egg, like a sperm, has one-half the chromosone of a regular cell. in the case of humans that is one-half on 48 which means both the egg and the sprem have 24 chromosome. if you add two sperm to a single agg, which i don't believe is possible, you get something with with 72 choromosome which is not a human. if it divides each has 36 chromosome which is also not human.
fraternal twins are two seperate eggs that combine with seperate sperm and genetically are no differient that normal brothers and/or sisters
griff
i question your "one egg and two sperm" theory.
I don't know how many chromosome horses have but if human fraternal twins came fron from one egg and two sperm you'd get something, and it would not be human, with 72 or mabe 36 instead of 48 chromosome.
an egg, like a sperm, has one-half the chromosone of a regular cell. in the case of humans that is one-half on 48 which means both the egg and the sprem have 24 chromosome. if you add two sperm to a single agg, which i don't believe is possible, you get something with with 72 choromosome which is not a human. if it divides each has 36 chromosome which is also not human.
fraternal twins are two seperate eggs that combine with seperate sperm and genetically are no differient that normal brothers and/or sisters
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
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summerhorse
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I doubt that Ashado's seven foals would have much of an impact on their sale prices not when 100 Storm Cats don't have an impact on how many people pay millions for them. It just means her owner would have 7 possible million $ + foals to offer up ( or KEEP). And it is unlikely with TB mares as valuable as they are would be kept racing, now a a lower class mare might but if she's winning so what? Don't we WANT our horses to run longer? Everyone's always bitching about them being retired early, AI and ET could let them breed AND run. ET is still iffy, it is unlikely you would get many more than 3 or 4 foals per year from any mare. I thnk that would be GOOD for the breed esp. if the mare is of a line not well prepresented. And if she doesn't produce well you find out that much faster and instead of breeding more crap foals from her you can move her to the surrogate barn. (instead of the kill pen)
Every mighty oak was once an acorn that stood its ground.
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Pan Zareta
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griff wrote:i question your "one egg and two sperm" theory.
I don't know that it's been confirmed in any species, but some scientists hypothesize that polar body twinning occasionally occurs (fertilization of both the ovum and the other small, normally yolk-less, haploid cell produced during meiosis II by the secondary oocyte). Such twins would have the same maternal genetic complement & be 'half identical'.
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justice2275
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couldsome one tellme
culd some one tellme what pinched is i am lost thank u
I've been gently reprimanded by a medical pal.. the embryo transfer part requires the Eggs to be harvested from the mare and fertilized in the lab, so many more than 6 or 7 fetuses could result, depending on the number of available surrogate mares. Also regarding the twins. It is more common for twins in mares that produce more than one egg simultaneously, thus resulting in completely fraternal twins.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
Embyro transfer started in the cutting business. A money winning cutting mare is bred, flushed with minium time off from her cutting career. Only in recent year's has AQHA allowed mulitiple foal's registered from the same dam in the same calendar year.
Quarterhorse racing mare's aren't bred until their career is over and they are retired to the broodmare band. I know of no one in my community of breeder's of runner's that does this or contemplates embyro transfer until retirement.
That there fella in Ireland need's to understand the prodecure of embyro transfer. It's not a simple as discovering twin's, flushing one and transfer into another mare.
It's a tad bit more complicated.
Quarterhorse racing mare's aren't bred until their career is over and they are retired to the broodmare band. I know of no one in my community of breeder's of runner's that does this or contemplates embyro transfer until retirement.
That there fella in Ireland need's to understand the prodecure of embyro transfer. It's not a simple as discovering twin's, flushing one and transfer into another mare.
It's a tad bit more complicated.Laissez les bon temps rouller!
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Tairaterces
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Sam wrote:If true, wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Thing is, twins (rare though they may be... at least as far as we know) is one of the things that has always made me stop and wonder WHY embryo transfer isn't allowed (ignoring for a moment the jagoffs who would exploit it unethically)
I've always been drawn to the 'what-if' game and *I* would be the type of person who would always wonder "what if I pinched the wrong twin?"
I've often wondered just how often twins get pinched, and how good the one that wasn't turns out to be.
Think about it.
What if Rock Hard Ten had been a twin ... what if HE'D been the one pinched? Or how much better may the twin have been?
Hi Sam,
I think Tiznow's vet pinched the right one don't you ? ? ? ?
Also when pinching they pinch the smaller of the two. In the DVD "On the Muscle" they show the vet pinching one and what really moved me was that as the vet pinched he said a "may he rest in peace", I didn't expect that.
T
"and Secretariat let no one down on the unforgettable afternoon of June 9, 1973, when he ran a hole in the wind"
~Bob Ehalt~
Avatar: Istabraq (Sadler's Wells x Betty's Secret by Secretariat) Champion Hurdler
~Bob Ehalt~
Avatar: Istabraq (Sadler's Wells x Betty's Secret by Secretariat) Champion Hurdler
Typically there is little need to pinch as one embryo will smother the other one early on. At OSU we had one stallion who was overly fertile and he had three mares in foal with twins, we only pinched on one mare which was as fate would have it Austique.
I don't have low self-esteem. I have low esteem for everyone else. ~ Daria
madelyn wrote:Regarding twins, you might sleep better after you pinch one if you think they happened due to cellular division and therefore were identical. Identical -- they are both exactly the same so it doesn't matter which one is pinched. These are classified as maternal twins.
With fraternal twins, it is a bit different, but typically it is still only one egg divided between two sperm and there is not much chance that one will be significantly better than the other.
Um, I've never heard the term "maternal twin" before in my life. Identical twins are one egg, one sperm that split hense two genetically identical individuals. Fraternal twins are two eggs and two sperm (one sperm to one egg) which become two completely different genetic individuals, and as I understand it, tends to happen in mares under artificial lights more often than identical twins from a split egg/sperm.