Line in the sand
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
Line in the sand
Is Line in the Sand dead or pensioned? If not, where is he this year?
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis
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yukidragon
- Starters Handicap
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- Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:29 pm
- Location: Oregon
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wilf
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1882
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 10:50 am
- Location: Ocala, Florida.
Forgive me for sounding coarse, many members here will know that I care deeply about the treatment and fate of the noble steed and even those less valued in the great scheme of things,however as a trainer I come across many sire lines through my hands and watch them at the races with interest . Unfortunately I have seen plenty of sorry looking nags by Line in the Sand and the one I owned was the most ungenuine troublesome beast that I ever met.I even won a race with her but I did find her a new pastime and hopefully she will live out her days making somebody else miserable and if she is bred then I pray that it is to a pony stallion.Sorry I just have to tell it like it is. If you are interested in lines I like then I could wax lyrically for hours about the wonderful One For All.....but I digress.
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JCBloodstock
- Maiden Special Weight
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- Location: Iowa
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I actually tried to buy Line In The Sand when Mike Sherman said he was dispersing Farnsworth but at the time he did have an offer in for $75,000-from New Zealand or Puerto Rico I believe.I liked the horse but it sounded like he was thinking around $125,000 for him to stay in the states(which made no sense to me) which still wasn't bad but was beyond my pocket book for a stallion standing for $2500.In comparison he priced Suave Prospect for 350k and Double Honor for 750k so even tho' the other 2 were younger stallions he still was not priced out of the market.
As for Line In The Sand siring rats-I've seen rats by Mr. Prospector and Danzig too - all stallions have them but here is the truth to Line In The Sand.Here's a horse that has stood in Florida since the beginning and not being a super sire but being an honest blue collar race horse sire for a very reasonable fee.He has sired 476 foals in 9 crops,394 starters for 83% amazing compared to most Kentucky stallions,he has 293 winners for 75% from starters and 64% from foals,13 stakes winners for 3% but that's why I call him an honest blue collar sire.He has average earnings per starter of $42,000 plus with a leading earner of roughly $500,000 and lifetime progeny earnings of over 17 million.Even in 2005 he had $2.5 million in progeny earnings.So yours may have been a rat but obviously there have been many that were'nt.
I'd be more inclined to know the female side of the rat.Case in example-I had Commemorate here in Iowa and I really felt bad one night at the races when a gentleman had just win a race that night with a Commemorate and proceeded to come to me and tell me that Commemorate was the biggest piece of junk he had ever bred to-this foal was the result of a breeding before I even bought "COM".I went home and looked up this foal(broke it's maiden that night in 1:14 3/5 for a $15,000 tag) and turns out this was the first winner for the mare from 9 foals no less all of which had started and never earned a check(1 had 18 starts).So who was the rat in this case,Commemorate-the mare or the foal.
All stallions get there rat's weather they stand for $500 or $500,000 - seems like there's quite a few Storm Cat's standing at stud out there out of the best mares in the world whose race records read "UNRACED".Were they rats or kept off the racetrack for fear of embarassing others or even worse yet---themselves.
As for Line In The Sand siring rats-I've seen rats by Mr. Prospector and Danzig too - all stallions have them but here is the truth to Line In The Sand.Here's a horse that has stood in Florida since the beginning and not being a super sire but being an honest blue collar race horse sire for a very reasonable fee.He has sired 476 foals in 9 crops,394 starters for 83% amazing compared to most Kentucky stallions,he has 293 winners for 75% from starters and 64% from foals,13 stakes winners for 3% but that's why I call him an honest blue collar sire.He has average earnings per starter of $42,000 plus with a leading earner of roughly $500,000 and lifetime progeny earnings of over 17 million.Even in 2005 he had $2.5 million in progeny earnings.So yours may have been a rat but obviously there have been many that were'nt.
I'd be more inclined to know the female side of the rat.Case in example-I had Commemorate here in Iowa and I really felt bad one night at the races when a gentleman had just win a race that night with a Commemorate and proceeded to come to me and tell me that Commemorate was the biggest piece of junk he had ever bred to-this foal was the result of a breeding before I even bought "COM".I went home and looked up this foal(broke it's maiden that night in 1:14 3/5 for a $15,000 tag) and turns out this was the first winner for the mare from 9 foals no less all of which had started and never earned a check(1 had 18 starts).So who was the rat in this case,Commemorate-the mare or the foal.
All stallions get there rat's weather they stand for $500 or $500,000 - seems like there's quite a few Storm Cat's standing at stud out there out of the best mares in the world whose race records read "UNRACED".Were they rats or kept off the racetrack for fear of embarassing others or even worse yet---themselves.
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wilf
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1882
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 10:50 am
- Location: Ocala, Florida.
JCB you write a very eloquent post obviously born of much experience and I cannot argue with you. As a horse lover who tries to make a living by coaxing horses to run faster than they might perhaps wish to I often scold myself after making rash judgements on particular horses and always give them a second chance and more!!! Farnsworth is just around the corner from me and they raise horses properly and naturally ; of course it loooks eerie now seeing those lovely pastures with spring-fed ponds empty of mares after so many years. I still stick to my sweeping brush-off concerning Line in the Sand , he is awful and yet his pedigree is outstanding and obviously his mares were less than one would like. Farnsworth dealt with blue-collar mares and won beaucoup races with very likeable value stallions such as Robyn Dancer who I would see most days as I drove by his paddock. As a postscript I will defer to your post by admitting that my filly was out of a mare by Gentle King who must have been a nervous type as I have had a few out of his mares and even though they had talent they were VERY difficult to work with. Respectfully.
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JCBloodstock
- Maiden Special Weight
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- Location: Iowa
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I also must apologize wilf because after posting I read yours again and noticed you are in Ocala and I thought to myself he has definitely seen more of them than I have.But I go off of stat's for the regional programs and Sand would have gone to Minnesota if the group I was purchasing for hadn't decided to have drug there feet on buying one.He would have fit well in to their program and if Ghazi(who is another blue collar sire) can breed 70 mares a year up there then Line In The Sand off his stats could have paid for himself in 2 years.I think if push came to shove he could have been bought between $85 to $100,000.I thought Farnsworth was sold to another horse person or are they going to do the dreadful development thing on it.That's to bad when farms in Ocala like Farnsworth and Mockingbird cease operations as well as Franks(the only farm I think I ever got lost on-that place was huge).They were all institutions in Florida like Claiborne is to Kentucky.
Thanks for weighing in, everyone. It's interesting; Line in the Sand (along with fellow Farnsworth stallions Adcat, Best of the Rest, and Sir Leon) don't appear in this year's Florida Horse stallion register, but I have't seen any official announcements yet anywhere as to where they're going, which I would assume means that negotiations or sales efforts are still in progress.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis
Hi JCBloodstock,
I think the old adage of "it happened for a reason" may have been a help to you.
I understand your feeling that Line In The Sand had reasonable earnings numbers to be a profitable stallion in the Minnesota program but Farnsworth was always getting him some mares and his CI is rather high at 1.57 (his AEI only 1.00).
I don't know if you have interest in unproven stallions but sometimes there are nice prospects that sell inexpensively at Keeneland - I'm sure you're aware of this. One in particular I liked this past November but none of my clients was in position to act on was Nacheezmo who sold for $20,000. A G2 placed son of Carson City who had some gaudy speed numbers (110 Beyer) against quality company (he ran 2nd to Strong Hope by a neck defeating Sky Mesa in the Dwyer), he sold well ($200k / $103k).
Amongst the most important criteria I use in selecting and projecting stallions is the quality of competition that a horse ran against as well as the races that they ran in. The Dwyer remains very interesting in it's ability to 'project' quality sires. Even finishing in the money in the Dwyer has projected stallions well. From 1987 to 1999 there has been Gone West (1), Seeking The Gold (1), Cherokee Run (1), Holy Bull (1), Twining (2), Gold Fever (2), Coronado's Quest (1), Forestry (1), Doneraille Court (2), Successful Appeal (3) and More Than Ready (2), nearly one decent to superior sire a year on average.
Nacheezmo is from a decent running family out of a stakes placed Deputy Minister mare, Lean Queen Cobra. He had some physical problems that hampered his career but was a dead game animal that twice finished his races (close) only to be vanned off. What I'm getting at is that most racehorse sires will have respectable earnings per foal. Even an unproven stallion prospect will get a percentage of winners and in a state program I see more money being made by stud farm and breeders standing a stallion like Nacheezmo where there is at least some potential for commercial appeal and where the farm can better leverage their efforts.
Just a thought.
Regards,
Pete
I think the old adage of "it happened for a reason" may have been a help to you.
I understand your feeling that Line In The Sand had reasonable earnings numbers to be a profitable stallion in the Minnesota program but Farnsworth was always getting him some mares and his CI is rather high at 1.57 (his AEI only 1.00).
I don't know if you have interest in unproven stallions but sometimes there are nice prospects that sell inexpensively at Keeneland - I'm sure you're aware of this. One in particular I liked this past November but none of my clients was in position to act on was Nacheezmo who sold for $20,000. A G2 placed son of Carson City who had some gaudy speed numbers (110 Beyer) against quality company (he ran 2nd to Strong Hope by a neck defeating Sky Mesa in the Dwyer), he sold well ($200k / $103k).
Amongst the most important criteria I use in selecting and projecting stallions is the quality of competition that a horse ran against as well as the races that they ran in. The Dwyer remains very interesting in it's ability to 'project' quality sires. Even finishing in the money in the Dwyer has projected stallions well. From 1987 to 1999 there has been Gone West (1), Seeking The Gold (1), Cherokee Run (1), Holy Bull (1), Twining (2), Gold Fever (2), Coronado's Quest (1), Forestry (1), Doneraille Court (2), Successful Appeal (3) and More Than Ready (2), nearly one decent to superior sire a year on average.
Nacheezmo is from a decent running family out of a stakes placed Deputy Minister mare, Lean Queen Cobra. He had some physical problems that hampered his career but was a dead game animal that twice finished his races (close) only to be vanned off. What I'm getting at is that most racehorse sires will have respectable earnings per foal. Even an unproven stallion prospect will get a percentage of winners and in a state program I see more money being made by stud farm and breeders standing a stallion like Nacheezmo where there is at least some potential for commercial appeal and where the farm can better leverage their efforts.
Just a thought.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
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JCBloodstock
- Maiden Special Weight
- Posts: 193
- Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 2:19 pm
- Location: Iowa
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Hey Pete,I liked Natcheezmo-one of the few I did like in November,but----here in the Midwest attempting to prove a young unproven stallion is like nil unless you have your own marepower to prove him-people will not breed to them until they see something run.With the older,proven stallions I have been able to keep clients in the business with the option of bringing in a younger stallion at a later date.The problem with the Carson City horse is there is 2 to choose from already and with the midwest combined we do not have the numbers of available mares to breed to that you have in your part of the country in one state.With a horse like Line In The Sand the main thing I had to promote off of was 2.5 million in progeny earnings(and his numbers that tower over the majority of stallions standing at stud here) in 2005-more than any other stallion standing in the midwest.At a $3000 stud fee this horse would have covered 60 to 75 mares which is a pretty good income for a beginning breeding farm-after a year or two of building up a clientel with Line In The Sand then bring in a horse like Natcheezmo.
I've done this in the past with farms like Timber Creek(I purchased Acaroid for them and covered 74 the first year here-In fact that was the 5th year of the Iowa Breeding Program and "AL" covered more mares than the other 21 stallions covered combined.Following Acaroid came Connecticut(Not a great racehorse but a very nice pedigree,sired by Ogygian and out of Tweak),Lord Pleasant by Lord Avie,Music Prince by Stop The Music,De Guerin by Storm Bird,Dr. Danzig by Danzig,Mr. Goldust by Mr. Prospector,Shotiche by Northen Dancer and Blumin Affair by Dynaformer-that's all at 1 farm in a 6 year period.There's other stables that I've done the same for.We do not have the mare pool to draw from on the young unproven stallions-the client that has the type of mare you would like to breed goes to Kentucky and you end up with the rest that does your stallion no good in quality of mares but with the older,proven stallions the person with the type of mare you want to breed is more inclined to breed in state.
I trust your opinions Pete(don't always agree with them but I do respect you for them).It's different here in the midwest than it is in most states-the problem is we have the same costs as all the other states have and it is a tough go.The only commercial market we have for yearlings is if they're foaled in Iowa or Minnesota but sired by a Kentucky Stallion.Case example is Queensco-sired by Humming(an unplaced full brother to Storm Song) and out of an honest Restricted Stakes Winning mare here in Iowa by the name of Century Storm.Goes thru the ring for $500 as a yearling(now I can see the twinges of most on this board saying she must have been junk).This $500 filly has now earned over $200,000 and is competitive in the open listed stakes races as well.If you sent a full sibling thru the ring today it would be lucky to bring $1500 here but a 1/2 sibling by a Kentucky stallion would bring 15 to 20 times that.It's a tough market here and if I can make these farms money with an older proven stallion then they'll come back to me a few years down the road.If I bring in a young,nice pedigree horse with a decent race record and all they do is lose money-I've lost a client for life.
I myself would love to be able to buy a prospect and develop him into something.I attempted that with Battle Cry(whose race record amounted to zilch but you couldn't fault his pedigree-by Storm Bird and out of Navajo Pass by Secretariat(full siter to Terlingua).I fought and pushed and had 55 mares booked to him at $3500 but still had the naysayers that wanted to see those first foals and even had people tell me that this horse couldn't be bred the way he was because he was in Iowa.Unfortunately,I lost him after covering only 13 mares due to a fracture of his hind leg in his stall.But the cold,hard reality to our very young programs here in the midwest is the only way you can do that here is to have the ability to breed your own mares to help them-but then the other problem arises,what do you do with all of them-you have no buyers for them.We're unlike Kentucky,Florida,New York and California where you do have buyers-most in the regional programs here breed for one thing-to race.They don't need to buy.There's basically nil for commercial markets to help try and get those outlying costs of proving an unproven stallion her.Nough said-take care pete
I've done this in the past with farms like Timber Creek(I purchased Acaroid for them and covered 74 the first year here-In fact that was the 5th year of the Iowa Breeding Program and "AL" covered more mares than the other 21 stallions covered combined.Following Acaroid came Connecticut(Not a great racehorse but a very nice pedigree,sired by Ogygian and out of Tweak),Lord Pleasant by Lord Avie,Music Prince by Stop The Music,De Guerin by Storm Bird,Dr. Danzig by Danzig,Mr. Goldust by Mr. Prospector,Shotiche by Northen Dancer and Blumin Affair by Dynaformer-that's all at 1 farm in a 6 year period.There's other stables that I've done the same for.We do not have the mare pool to draw from on the young unproven stallions-the client that has the type of mare you would like to breed goes to Kentucky and you end up with the rest that does your stallion no good in quality of mares but with the older,proven stallions the person with the type of mare you want to breed is more inclined to breed in state.
I trust your opinions Pete(don't always agree with them but I do respect you for them).It's different here in the midwest than it is in most states-the problem is we have the same costs as all the other states have and it is a tough go.The only commercial market we have for yearlings is if they're foaled in Iowa or Minnesota but sired by a Kentucky Stallion.Case example is Queensco-sired by Humming(an unplaced full brother to Storm Song) and out of an honest Restricted Stakes Winning mare here in Iowa by the name of Century Storm.Goes thru the ring for $500 as a yearling(now I can see the twinges of most on this board saying she must have been junk).This $500 filly has now earned over $200,000 and is competitive in the open listed stakes races as well.If you sent a full sibling thru the ring today it would be lucky to bring $1500 here but a 1/2 sibling by a Kentucky stallion would bring 15 to 20 times that.It's a tough market here and if I can make these farms money with an older proven stallion then they'll come back to me a few years down the road.If I bring in a young,nice pedigree horse with a decent race record and all they do is lose money-I've lost a client for life.
I myself would love to be able to buy a prospect and develop him into something.I attempted that with Battle Cry(whose race record amounted to zilch but you couldn't fault his pedigree-by Storm Bird and out of Navajo Pass by Secretariat(full siter to Terlingua).I fought and pushed and had 55 mares booked to him at $3500 but still had the naysayers that wanted to see those first foals and even had people tell me that this horse couldn't be bred the way he was because he was in Iowa.Unfortunately,I lost him after covering only 13 mares due to a fracture of his hind leg in his stall.But the cold,hard reality to our very young programs here in the midwest is the only way you can do that here is to have the ability to breed your own mares to help them-but then the other problem arises,what do you do with all of them-you have no buyers for them.We're unlike Kentucky,Florida,New York and California where you do have buyers-most in the regional programs here breed for one thing-to race.They don't need to buy.There's basically nil for commercial markets to help try and get those outlying costs of proving an unproven stallion her.Nough said-take care pete
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JCBloodstock
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Hi Ruffian,
Thanks for the tip.
I never saw Nacheezmo before the sale (in November) and his being for sale now might mean that his new connections don't like him or can't get any interest going. He was well sold @$200,000 vs $104k average for Carson City as a yearling. I suspect that his racing injuries may have made him physically less appealing.
I liked the fact that Nacheezmo was very tough and at his best lost by a neck to Strong Hope (fee $30,000) and defeated (by 2 lengths) Sky Mesa (fee $30,000) closing from the clouds. He got a 110 Beyer for that race and 100+ for other races. I'm not a fan of Beyer Numbers except for the ego value and the promotion that they give to stallions. 110 is a heady number to advertise.
He also defeated Dynever (Mdn) and only lost by 6-1/2 lengths, in the Jim Dandy, to Strong Hope, Empire Maker and Congrats despite needing to be vanned off after the race. He was the 6-5 favorite in the Peter Pan, got caught in a speed duel (1:08.4) but never seemed to take to the track. He showed versatility (speed, stalk or deep close), won in 1:22.4 @7f and got a 110 Beyer routing. He was competitive before breaking his maiden and then in a stretch of 5 races had 3 wins, the Peter Pan (above) and the 2nd in the Dwyer. He was competitive but vanned off in his last 2 races. With a little luck he might have really made a name for himself.
Certainly he was as talented as almost any son of Carson City and his dam, Lean Queen Cobra, brought appeal as a stakes-placed daughter of Deputy Minister. His pedigree is good, not first rate, but more important to me than family is the caliber of runner - they need to be the best in their families. I don't want to extend my appreciation of this prospect past sensibilities but there are similarities to Mr. Prospector.
Regards,
Pete
Thanks for the tip.
I never saw Nacheezmo before the sale (in November) and his being for sale now might mean that his new connections don't like him or can't get any interest going. He was well sold @$200,000 vs $104k average for Carson City as a yearling. I suspect that his racing injuries may have made him physically less appealing.
I liked the fact that Nacheezmo was very tough and at his best lost by a neck to Strong Hope (fee $30,000) and defeated (by 2 lengths) Sky Mesa (fee $30,000) closing from the clouds. He got a 110 Beyer for that race and 100+ for other races. I'm not a fan of Beyer Numbers except for the ego value and the promotion that they give to stallions. 110 is a heady number to advertise.
He also defeated Dynever (Mdn) and only lost by 6-1/2 lengths, in the Jim Dandy, to Strong Hope, Empire Maker and Congrats despite needing to be vanned off after the race. He was the 6-5 favorite in the Peter Pan, got caught in a speed duel (1:08.4) but never seemed to take to the track. He showed versatility (speed, stalk or deep close), won in 1:22.4 @7f and got a 110 Beyer routing. He was competitive before breaking his maiden and then in a stretch of 5 races had 3 wins, the Peter Pan (above) and the 2nd in the Dwyer. He was competitive but vanned off in his last 2 races. With a little luck he might have really made a name for himself.
Certainly he was as talented as almost any son of Carson City and his dam, Lean Queen Cobra, brought appeal as a stakes-placed daughter of Deputy Minister. His pedigree is good, not first rate, but more important to me than family is the caliber of runner - they need to be the best in their families. I don't want to extend my appreciation of this prospect past sensibilities but there are similarities to Mr. Prospector.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms