ST. SIMON-FOUNDATION SIRE OF SIRES!!
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ST. SIMON-FOUNDATION SIRE OF SIRES!!
Has anyone besides myself recognized that Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector, Seattle Slew, and Storm Cat all have a very high degree of inbreeding to St. Simon. All these modern day sires each have a great amount of crosses to him. Is this something we should look for in other stallions today? Many crosses to St. Simon? I am no pedigree guru but it seems that all the great modern sires above have this one sire in common many times over. Would love to hear other opinions from you that are much more educated in genetics and pedigrees. I found this quite fascinating.
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louis finochio
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As a student of pedigree's, you are correct in your post.
St. Simon was a chef many times over.
While researching pedigrees I have found a classic nick when the sire line of Rabelais has been crossed with St. Simon line stallions.
While many breeders dont like the sire stamina line of Rabelais, as it is a late maturing family, those breeders want speed and more speed in their matings. Speed and Speed leads to early breakdowns and unsoundess.
It is those old stamina sire lines that bring back the soundness in our TB matings. Long live St. Simon as he is a great influence of our TB past and present.
St. Simon was a chef many times over.
While researching pedigrees I have found a classic nick when the sire line of Rabelais has been crossed with St. Simon line stallions.
While many breeders dont like the sire stamina line of Rabelais, as it is a late maturing family, those breeders want speed and more speed in their matings. Speed and Speed leads to early breakdowns and unsoundess.
It is those old stamina sire lines that bring back the soundness in our TB matings. Long live St. Simon as he is a great influence of our TB past and present.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
St. Simon/Rabelais Nick
Louis:
Interesting. Would you please expound on and explain the nick? I though Rabelais was a son of St. Simon. How many generations down did the nick work? and how many examples did your research uncover?
Interesting. Would you please expound on and explain the nick? I though Rabelais was a son of St. Simon. How many generations down did the nick work? and how many examples did your research uncover?
St. Simon
I have noticed this phenomona as well, Larrygene. I have a HUGE list of horses with a bazillion crosses with St. Simon and/or his father, Galopin, who are either great runners or great producers or both. Secretariat is the poster child for this idiosyncrasy with 18 crosses with St. Simon and 26 crosses of Galopin - elevating both of them to 5 x 5 in the linebreeding. Another quirk of this list of great runners/producers with many crosses of St. Simon or Galopin is that there pedigree is loaded with single and double copy mares. There are a few exceptions but for the most part, the vast majority share this peculiarity as well.
As the years pass and St. Simon and Galopin get farther out than 9 generations, they will not appear in the pedigree. The horse that seems to have taken their place in this peculiar finding (appearing with many crosses to elevate him to 6 x 6 or better in the linebreeding) is Teddy. A very high percentage of the better/great younger horses show many crosses of Teddy that raise him to 6 x 6 or better in the linebreeding.
As the years pass and St. Simon and Galopin get farther out than 9 generations, they will not appear in the pedigree. The horse that seems to have taken their place in this peculiar finding (appearing with many crosses to elevate him to 6 x 6 or better in the linebreeding) is Teddy. A very high percentage of the better/great younger horses show many crosses of Teddy that raise him to 6 x 6 or better in the linebreeding.
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louis finochio
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Danehill is out of a His Majesty mare which is the sire line of Rabelais ala St. Simon.
The following BMS have produced superior nicks when line bred to St. Simon stallions.
Graustark---His Majesty are full brothers. Tom Rolfe---Alleged---Key to the Mint---Le Fabuleux---Arts and Letters---Ribot--- and Hoist the Flag.
There are other BMS that have produced superior nicks, but the best of the Rabelais sire line are the ones I posted.
The following BMS have produced superior nicks when line bred to St. Simon stallions.
Graustark---His Majesty are full brothers. Tom Rolfe---Alleged---Key to the Mint---Le Fabuleux---Arts and Letters---Ribot--- and Hoist the Flag.
There are other BMS that have produced superior nicks, but the best of the Rabelais sire line are the ones I posted.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
Hi Larrygene,
St. Simon’s sire is virtually extinct in North America now with only sons of Meadowlake, Thunder Puddles and Siphon (all Persimmon line) carrying on but a century ago he was a leading sire of sires represented by the likes of Rabelais, Chaucer, St. Frusquin, Persimmon, Desmond and Diamond Jubilee (sorry if I forgot anyone). As a blood influence in sires St. Simon is highly proliferated and it’s probable that most current thoroughbreds will carry 50 or more crosses of him.
I don’t mean to minimize what you’ve discovered but I think you’ll find that most horses from the 1960’s through 1980’s carry a significant amount of St. Simon (within 9 generations) either by blood content or number of crosses. I looked up a modest claiming sprinter that ran about the same time as Secretariat named Deterministic and he carries 30 crosses (in 9 generations) to St. Simon. His blood's abundant in the good the bad and the ugly.
Louis, like HPKing, I’m intrigued by the nick that you describe between St. Simon and his son Rabelais. I know that you feel that the Phalaris line is responsible for much of the unsoundness in current thoroughbreds but it’s interesting that all of his important sons were inbred to St. Simon 4x3 or closer.
By the 1920’s most of the proliferation of St. Simon’s blood was through his daughters, especially those by his son Chaucer like the great sire producing mares Selene and Scapa Flow. Plucky Liege is the third great sire producing dam of this era and her dam, Concertina is a daughter of St. Simon. Virtually all of the impacting sons of Phalaris; Pharos, Pharamond, Sickle, Colorado, Caerleon and Fairway are out of Chaucer mares and thus inbred 4x3 to St. Simon and the most influential son not by a daughter of Chaucer, Manna, is inbred to him 4x4x3. The most important of the immediate male descendants of Phalaris, the great Nearco is inbred to him 5x4x4x5.
Selene produced Sickle (ancestor of Mr. Prospector) and Pharamond (ancestor of Buckpasser) both by Phalaris but also the immensely influential sire Hyperion (by Gainsborough) who is likewise inbred to St. Simon 4x3.
Plucky Liege produced five sires , Sir Galahad III, Bulldog and Quatre Bras, all by Teddy so that they have St. Simon in their third generation, Bois Roussel (4x6x7x3 St. Simon) and Admiral Drake (5x3). In North America Sir Galahad and Bull Dog were very influential.
Thus it was virtually impossible for any thoroughbreds to escape having significant blood or numerous crosses to St. Simon. Even lines like Ribot (17 crosses to St. Simon) and In Reality (12 crosses) would add substantially to these numbers.
St. Simon’s sire line may have waned to the point that it may soon be extinct but what you’ve discovered is that that his influence is immeasurable in the modern thoroughbred, truly a foundation in blood.
Regards,
Pete
St. Simon’s sire is virtually extinct in North America now with only sons of Meadowlake, Thunder Puddles and Siphon (all Persimmon line) carrying on but a century ago he was a leading sire of sires represented by the likes of Rabelais, Chaucer, St. Frusquin, Persimmon, Desmond and Diamond Jubilee (sorry if I forgot anyone). As a blood influence in sires St. Simon is highly proliferated and it’s probable that most current thoroughbreds will carry 50 or more crosses of him.
I don’t mean to minimize what you’ve discovered but I think you’ll find that most horses from the 1960’s through 1980’s carry a significant amount of St. Simon (within 9 generations) either by blood content or number of crosses. I looked up a modest claiming sprinter that ran about the same time as Secretariat named Deterministic and he carries 30 crosses (in 9 generations) to St. Simon. His blood's abundant in the good the bad and the ugly.
Louis, like HPKing, I’m intrigued by the nick that you describe between St. Simon and his son Rabelais. I know that you feel that the Phalaris line is responsible for much of the unsoundness in current thoroughbreds but it’s interesting that all of his important sons were inbred to St. Simon 4x3 or closer.
By the 1920’s most of the proliferation of St. Simon’s blood was through his daughters, especially those by his son Chaucer like the great sire producing mares Selene and Scapa Flow. Plucky Liege is the third great sire producing dam of this era and her dam, Concertina is a daughter of St. Simon. Virtually all of the impacting sons of Phalaris; Pharos, Pharamond, Sickle, Colorado, Caerleon and Fairway are out of Chaucer mares and thus inbred 4x3 to St. Simon and the most influential son not by a daughter of Chaucer, Manna, is inbred to him 4x4x3. The most important of the immediate male descendants of Phalaris, the great Nearco is inbred to him 5x4x4x5.
Selene produced Sickle (ancestor of Mr. Prospector) and Pharamond (ancestor of Buckpasser) both by Phalaris but also the immensely influential sire Hyperion (by Gainsborough) who is likewise inbred to St. Simon 4x3.
Plucky Liege produced five sires , Sir Galahad III, Bulldog and Quatre Bras, all by Teddy so that they have St. Simon in their third generation, Bois Roussel (4x6x7x3 St. Simon) and Admiral Drake (5x3). In North America Sir Galahad and Bull Dog were very influential.
Thus it was virtually impossible for any thoroughbreds to escape having significant blood or numerous crosses to St. Simon. Even lines like Ribot (17 crosses to St. Simon) and In Reality (12 crosses) would add substantially to these numbers.
St. Simon’s sire line may have waned to the point that it may soon be extinct but what you’ve discovered is that that his influence is immeasurable in the modern thoroughbred, truly a foundation in blood.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
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kimberley mine
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louis finochio
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The following St. Simon, Rabelais BMS were better BMS than Sires of Sires.
Some of these BMS had a BMS AEI in the top 1% of the TB population.
Hoist the Flag---3.07
Graustark---2.38
Key to the Mint---2.36
Tom Rolfe---1.94
Le Fabuleux---1.91
Alleged---1.88
His Majesty---1.67
Arts and Letters---1.53
Danehill was produced by a His Majesty mare and Danehill was the only stallion to sire over 300 SW. Will Danehill follow suit and become a better BMS thatn a sire of sires? Only time will tell.
Some of these BMS had a BMS AEI in the top 1% of the TB population.
Hoist the Flag---3.07
Graustark---2.38
Key to the Mint---2.36
Tom Rolfe---1.94
Le Fabuleux---1.91
Alleged---1.88
His Majesty---1.67
Arts and Letters---1.53
Danehill was produced by a His Majesty mare and Danehill was the only stallion to sire over 300 SW. Will Danehill follow suit and become a better BMS thatn a sire of sires? Only time will tell.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
Hi Louis,
I'll take your meaning to be that the Rabelais line has produced some fine broodmare sires and I'd agree. I wouldn't call it a nick between Rabelais and his sire because St. Simon was sure to appear in the pedigrees of every sire that you mentioned, all foaled after 1960. None of these sires has St. Simon blood within 5 generations except Le Fabuleux who has 1 4th generation cross. It's possible that the line breeding between them has affected their abilities.
Danehill isn't St. Simon sire line so he really doesn't fit unless you're making a point that I'm missing.
Regards,
Pete
I'll take your meaning to be that the Rabelais line has produced some fine broodmare sires and I'd agree. I wouldn't call it a nick between Rabelais and his sire because St. Simon was sure to appear in the pedigrees of every sire that you mentioned, all foaled after 1960. None of these sires has St. Simon blood within 5 generations except Le Fabuleux who has 1 4th generation cross. It's possible that the line breeding between them has affected their abilities.
Danehill isn't St. Simon sire line so he really doesn't fit unless you're making a point that I'm missing.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
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louis finochio
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I posted Danehill as an example of the classic nick that produced Danehill, as his dam was a daughter of His Majesty.
I didnt mean that Danehill was a St. Simon line sire.
When Northern Dancer was bred to Rabelais sire line mares, ND produced 30 % SW.
The same positive nick resulted when Storm Cat, Storm Bird and Hennessy were bred to those mares from the sire line of Rabelais.
I didnt mean that Danehill was a St. Simon line sire.
When Northern Dancer was bred to Rabelais sire line mares, ND produced 30 % SW.
The same positive nick resulted when Storm Cat, Storm Bird and Hennessy were bred to those mares from the sire line of Rabelais.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
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LaTroienne
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St. Simon's direct tail-male sire line may be nearly extinct, but, through horses like Princequillo, who had many good daughters, his blood is alive. Since Princequillo was the maternal grandsire of Secretariat, the broodmare sire of horses like Gone West, Dehere, A.P. Indy...it's still v. much alive today.