Hi Jon,
You said the magic words; look at the results that may correspond to the 'nick rating'. If there are several substantial runners then it has more relevance. Do the due diligence.
I used to write articles about collecting where I stressed the difference between accumulating and collecting. For anything to be part of a collection it must have a conceptual reason to be added. Any horse that an owner buys should have a salient and cogent reason to be purchased. Prior to purchasing a broodmare (as an example) the owner should already have a plan of action and even a stallion selected for her. The disposition of the foal should be anticipated prior to purchase and only modified if they’re not of the quality hoped for and this would in turn affect the disposition of the mare. Purchasing bloodstock because you like them and have no plan of action is accumulating and if you’re not financially set it’s a good way to go broke.
Werk not claiming that the 25% of all racers rated as nicks were due to their products is honest. I have problems with the ratings but not the presentation by Werk.
Regards,
Pete
Sales & the nick ratings
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
Pete,
Since you mention that werk advertises responsibly I thought I would mention (unless I read without total comprehension) werk is a proponent of less linebreeding within the first four generations and breeding lines as Louis states, that have an affinity for each other. I think in long run this is a good thing for Thoroughbreds. The only problem I see, and its been said 100 times already, is certain untested pairings may never tried. That could have an adverse effect as well though you could never verify it.
Since you mention that werk advertises responsibly I thought I would mention (unless I read without total comprehension) werk is a proponent of less linebreeding within the first four generations and breeding lines as Louis states, that have an affinity for each other. I think in long run this is a good thing for Thoroughbreds. The only problem I see, and its been said 100 times already, is certain untested pairings may never tried. That could have an adverse effect as well though you could never verify it.
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louis finochio
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To Ragsdaj; When you posted untested pairings will never be tried, your right on target.
Years ago when the non-Phalaris sire line mares out numbered the Phalaris sire line stallions the TB breeders had a golden chance to produce those superior runners.
As the non-Phalaris mares provided an outcross for those Phalaris stallions.
In todays time frame the TB breeders are mating those Phalaris sire line mares to the Phalaris stallions, as their offspring are from the same gene pool.
Thats why it has been decades between TC winners, and we are not producing the quality TB of the past.
Lets use this example in what I am refering to.
Lets say Stallion A of the Phalaris sire line has been bred to non-Phalaris sire line of mares.
These mares are from the sire line of Ben Brush---Chaucer---Gainsborough---Hurry On---Massine---Orby ---Peter Pan---Prince Rose---Questionnaire---Rock Sand---Swynford---Teddy.
Lets say that Stallion A has produced superior runners with the Ben Brush and Prince Rose mares.
Stallion B a Phalaris sire line stallion was not bred to any non-Phalaris sire line mares. Stallion B was a mediocre producer, because he did not get the chance to breed to those non-Phalairs sire line mares that Stallion A was bred to.
This is what has happened over the years as the breed has lost those non-Phalaris sire line mares to produce those superior runners.
Years ago when the non-Phalaris sire line mares out numbered the Phalaris sire line stallions the TB breeders had a golden chance to produce those superior runners.
As the non-Phalaris mares provided an outcross for those Phalaris stallions.
In todays time frame the TB breeders are mating those Phalaris sire line mares to the Phalaris stallions, as their offspring are from the same gene pool.
Thats why it has been decades between TC winners, and we are not producing the quality TB of the past.
Lets use this example in what I am refering to.
Lets say Stallion A of the Phalaris sire line has been bred to non-Phalaris sire line of mares.
These mares are from the sire line of Ben Brush---Chaucer---Gainsborough---Hurry On---Massine---Orby ---Peter Pan---Prince Rose---Questionnaire---Rock Sand---Swynford---Teddy.
Lets say that Stallion A has produced superior runners with the Ben Brush and Prince Rose mares.
Stallion B a Phalaris sire line stallion was not bred to any non-Phalaris sire line mares. Stallion B was a mediocre producer, because he did not get the chance to breed to those non-Phalairs sire line mares that Stallion A was bred to.
This is what has happened over the years as the breed has lost those non-Phalaris sire line mares to produce those superior runners.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
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louis finochio
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Shammy Davis
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Louis: I'm always interested in your postion on this NP vs P, but when you say many years ago, that's somewhat of an distortion. I guess 60 plus years is a long time to many, but in Europe alone, immediately after WWII there were over 80 Pharlaris line stallions standing. The exponential number of Phalaris line mares and horses that are bred today is a direct result of that European experience. The die was definitely cast and there was no return. Neartic and Nasrullah were the icing on the cake for NA. Wingfield and Hancock knew their horses but they also gambled on the market. Very nice bet, don't you think? Northern Dancer. Bold Ruler. I still disagree with you on the "unsoundness" issue but historically, can you imagine what would have happened if Sam Riddle had opened wider the book on his Man o'War sons.
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louis finochio
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When Bull Hancock bought Nasrullah for around $300,000, Bull knew that Nasrullah was the leading freshman stallion.
Rex Ellsworth was ready to buy Nasrullah, but Bull got wind of the sale and beat Ellsworth to the table, and the rest is history.
As you posted both Nearctic and Nasrullah blazed their own trail to greatness. The war caused Aga Khan to sell Nasrullah and Khaled as the Aga was financially tee totaled.
The 300,000 price tag for Nasrullah was alot of $ in those days.
As we can see after the passing of Bull Hancock, his Clairborne Farm has went in a steep decline. The same thing happened when John Madden passed on and Preston took the reins from his father.
When you lose the leading breeders it is hard to replace them, as the breeding game is most difficult to master.
I wonder what Tessio's formula would be in todays time frame, to produce those superior runners as he did in his time.
Rex Ellsworth was ready to buy Nasrullah, but Bull got wind of the sale and beat Ellsworth to the table, and the rest is history.
As you posted both Nearctic and Nasrullah blazed their own trail to greatness. The war caused Aga Khan to sell Nasrullah and Khaled as the Aga was financially tee totaled.
The 300,000 price tag for Nasrullah was alot of $ in those days.
As we can see after the passing of Bull Hancock, his Clairborne Farm has went in a steep decline. The same thing happened when John Madden passed on and Preston took the reins from his father.
When you lose the leading breeders it is hard to replace them, as the breeding game is most difficult to master.
I wonder what Tessio's formula would be in todays time frame, to produce those superior runners as he did in his time.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
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Shammy Davis
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Louis: For many years, I've had my nose, so to speak, in livestock/K9/and equine genetics. I've also taken in a great deal of history on the subject. Historically, everything I've read about Tesio was that his choices of mares were highly subjective. Many of his contempories thought his choices were suspect but to everyone's dismay he simply had an eye for good mating potential. Being a shrewd businessman didn't hurt him a bit, but he was very willing to depend upon his gut instinct. It took over 10 years for him to have any successess. Bull Hancock, on the other end of spectrum, was just a shrewd businessman. He was born and later married into the business. His VA family roots were failures at the business. It was not until he moved to KY that stallions like PRINCEQUILO and AMBRIOX turned a profit for him. The stallions he later acquired and synicated, in particular NASRULLAH, were tested and he knew what their value and profit potential was. There are more "Bull Hancocks" in this business, than I care to think about. Taking nothing away from his business acumen, Bull's connections were extraordinary. Bull was certainly no Tesio, but it will be ashame if his son's can't race and breed at the same level and in the same circles. As you know, its unlikely there will ever be another Tesio.
Hi All,
The simple fact is that the Phalaris lines have risen to prominence because they diversified and out competed other lines based on our standard of selection, precocity and speed. These sire lines trace to Phalaris but they’ve long since become Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector and Turn-To (etc.) sire lines.
Shammy, you make an excellent point about the Phalaris sire lines that have existed and flourished since the 1920's. If our standard of selection was based on racing 10f (on dirt) then there’s little possibility that the Phalaris originated lines would have been able to have achieved such dominance.
The fact that the lines of Northern Dancer and Mr. Prospector (amongst others) have had great success together indicates the extent of their diversification from their original source. The real difference is that these Phalaris originated lines are dominant sire lines while the blood of other lines is exists elsewhere but generally proliferated in the pedigree. Ignoring their contribution to a current pedigree because they're not on the sire line is incorrect analysis.
The root cause of apparent unsoundness is in the use of the animal. The major difference in the last 30 years is that most (rather than some) young horses are pushed to compete against the best competition in order to establish breeding credentials. I don't discount the impact of medications (of whatever type) that allow the young colts (or fillies) to race at peak levels for shorter periods of time. If you want to make an unsound horse, race them hard before they’re ready to handle the test (and medicate them), its form following function.
This year we have several nice 3yo colts that have thrived while racing regionally and they’ve generally remained sound partially due to limited competition. When they collide in a little more than a week in the KY Derby their test will begin. At no time in the history of the thoroughbred has there been the ability to bring together horses to compete as exists today.
Regards,
Pete
The simple fact is that the Phalaris lines have risen to prominence because they diversified and out competed other lines based on our standard of selection, precocity and speed. These sire lines trace to Phalaris but they’ve long since become Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector and Turn-To (etc.) sire lines.
Shammy, you make an excellent point about the Phalaris sire lines that have existed and flourished since the 1920's. If our standard of selection was based on racing 10f (on dirt) then there’s little possibility that the Phalaris originated lines would have been able to have achieved such dominance.
The fact that the lines of Northern Dancer and Mr. Prospector (amongst others) have had great success together indicates the extent of their diversification from their original source. The real difference is that these Phalaris originated lines are dominant sire lines while the blood of other lines is exists elsewhere but generally proliferated in the pedigree. Ignoring their contribution to a current pedigree because they're not on the sire line is incorrect analysis.
The root cause of apparent unsoundness is in the use of the animal. The major difference in the last 30 years is that most (rather than some) young horses are pushed to compete against the best competition in order to establish breeding credentials. I don't discount the impact of medications (of whatever type) that allow the young colts (or fillies) to race at peak levels for shorter periods of time. If you want to make an unsound horse, race them hard before they’re ready to handle the test (and medicate them), its form following function.
This year we have several nice 3yo colts that have thrived while racing regionally and they’ve generally remained sound partially due to limited competition. When they collide in a little more than a week in the KY Derby their test will begin. At no time in the history of the thoroughbred has there been the ability to bring together horses to compete as exists today.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
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louis finochio
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In Euro racing they have a no med policy, and their TB are races are spaced far apart.
Look at what happened to Shamardal and Motivator and Divine Porportions. Their underpining came apart and they became early candidates for the breeding shed.
The Euro TC races are spaced months apart, as this gives those TB a chance to catch their breath.
The US TC races are too close together, as our TB dont have time to catch their breath. More TB are pushed off the cliffs edge to race in those TC races.
For every TC winner their are too many also rans that became the same as they were boys sent out to do the work of men. Amen.
Look at what happened to Shamardal and Motivator and Divine Porportions. Their underpining came apart and they became early candidates for the breeding shed.
The Euro TC races are spaced months apart, as this gives those TB a chance to catch their breath.
The US TC races are too close together, as our TB dont have time to catch their breath. More TB are pushed off the cliffs edge to race in those TC races.
For every TC winner their are too many also rans that became the same as they were boys sent out to do the work of men. Amen.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
not too brilliant when it comes to werk ratings, so I will not be surprised when you say you already knew this.
I received an A+ rating for Cure the Clues/Woodman. Nothing special so far.
I go to find the Stakes Winners from this cross. I can find none. Now my mare is from a woodman son and the sire nicking to is Kimberlite Pipe. The point is I viewed the rating as going backward in lineage until a statistically valid match was made. This is not entirely correct. The rating can go sideways if I can call it that.
I wrote Werk (they always respond in a reasonable timeframe) and asked what were the names of the horses that supported an A+ rating.
They are Burning Brightly and Seeyoubychance. Both of these horses are sired by American Chance a totally different son (sideways jump) of Cure the Blues. Thus because Cure the Blues had one son who sired a stakes winner through woodman Cure the Blues gets an A+ rating too.
I knew it went backwards, but I did not know it could make two left turns and head north again.
I received an A+ rating for Cure the Clues/Woodman. Nothing special so far.
I go to find the Stakes Winners from this cross. I can find none. Now my mare is from a woodman son and the sire nicking to is Kimberlite Pipe. The point is I viewed the rating as going backward in lineage until a statistically valid match was made. This is not entirely correct. The rating can go sideways if I can call it that.
I wrote Werk (they always respond in a reasonable timeframe) and asked what were the names of the horses that supported an A+ rating.
They are Burning Brightly and Seeyoubychance. Both of these horses are sired by American Chance a totally different son (sideways jump) of Cure the Blues. Thus because Cure the Blues had one son who sired a stakes winner through woodman Cure the Blues gets an A+ rating too.
I knew it went backwards, but I did not know it could make two left turns and head north again.