theoretically speaking....

[billyboy2674]

Hello all,I'm new as far as studying thoroughbreds and horses in general and I have what could be possibly be construed as a stupid question for all who know the answer and a good one for those of us who don't....and here it goes.
I've heard that the Florida racing circuit is possibly the weakest in the U.S.A,and I'm wondering why.
Meaning:if the lines are about the same(I've researched and even some horses In Puerto Rico have biggies like Seattle slew,ribot,spectacular bid etc in them),wouldn't there,at least theoretically,be a chance for any circuit be able to produce the next racing superstar?
Or is there a weak link in these circuits I'm not aware of and is responsible for keeping them weaker than the rest?
Thanks for all who may answer and I hope I phrased my question properly.

Att,
William.

[Mahubah]

Depends on when you are racing and at which track. Gulfstream Park's winter/spring meet draws a lot of promising horses that (the owners hope) will step up and prove themselves worthy of a shot at the Derby, so 3yo allowance races at that time tend to be much deeper than they are during any other time in Florida. The Florida Derby has not drawn as deep a field the last couple of years because of the change in its timing to five weeks ahead of the Kentucky Derby, but obviously that didn't slow Barbaro down much. Gulfstream also runs some good races for 3yo fillies and older horses during its meeting -- all told, probably best compared to Santa Anita's winter/spring meet. IMO, a step up from winter racing at Aqueduct, which tends to be dominated by a bunch of hardy locals (primarily older horses) until the Derby preps roll around.

Calder is mostly known for a place to start 2yos, most of which will be pointed to the Florida Stallion Stakes series if they prove to have some ability. It also runs a good card of sprint stakes at the Festival of Speed but otherwise would be a cut below Gulfstream Park's meeting. Then you step down to Tampa Bay Downs, which has the G3 Tampa Bay Derby as its biggest event -- that puts it about on a par with places like River Downs and Mountaineer Park. Tampa Bay Downs has an odd surface that a lot of horses don't like.

[louis finochio]

To BB: To seperate the level of racing class between the high-middle and low you can do the following.

Buy a stallion directory and look up the Stallions AEI, which is Average-Earnings-Index.

A high AEI would be 2.25 and up. A middle AEI would be 1.50-185. A Low AEI would be 1.00-1.40.

The TB that race at the major tracks like Santa Anita, Hollywood Pk, Belmont would have been sired by those high AEI figures.

The smaller tracks like Tampa Bay will have those stallions low AEI.

The AEI is a tool you can use to find the best stallions in the US.

[pretender]

BB,

In your studies, could you define a circuit for me. I'd be interested to know how many you have identified and how you have ranked them.
What circuit is Fairmont Park, Louisiana Downs, etc?

Since you feel Florida is at the bottom (I have no opinion on it myself) you must have or been given a reason to believe it is true. That might be a better starting point for debate or examination.

The one thing I know for sure is you can usually follow the money. Horse owners have a nose for it. It's like a carrot dangled in front of a horse. It seems there are even children searching for it these days.

[Ill-bred]

Billy-

Florida is most certainly not the weakest circuit in the USA. It is one of the better. I'd rank it fourth best.

The top three are New York, California, and Kentucky in some order.

Then I'd rank Florida and Louisiana. It goes on down from there.

[StrawberryFelidos]

If Florida is being ranked the weakest circuit, than what on earth do people have to say about Nebraska racing? How about New Mexican racing? And the king that is Missouri racing
Hey, I like those tracks- but they don't top Florida in anyone's dreams.

[pretender]

I doubt this was a serious post anyway. BB just wanted to poke at the lion through the bars.

[FOS]

hi billyboy2674, William

I've heard that the Florida racing circuit is possibly the weakest in the U.S.A,and I'm wondering why.

Respectfully, billyboy2674...the person that offered you that opinion should be permanently crossed off your list of credible people (at least as far as horseracing is concerned).

Stop your wondering and be assured...Florida is NOT the weakest racing circuit in the U.S.A....by any stretch of the imagination.

Consider this...there are three paramutuel racetracks in the state...Gulfstream Park, Calder and Tampa Bay.

Gulfstream Park (which opens after New Years for a couple of months) is arguably one of the toughest meets in the country.

Calder is arguably one of the most difficult tracks in the country to win at. The surface is sandy and slow (basically for drainage purposes during the sometimes very rainy summer months)...but make no mistake, it takes a good horse to win there. Arguably a problem with Calder is that the purses are barely so-so, and who knows what the future might be there if slots don't come to the rescue.

As Mahubah referenced...the Florida Stallion Stakes series (run at Calder) is a very rich attraction for eligible 2-year-olds...and Calder's Festival of the Sun...and Summit of Speed etc attract many big-time horses and riders. Calder is NOT an easy spot, by any stretch of the imagination.

As for the bottom in Florida (not the country)...it's Tampa Bay Downs. That said...the colt (Bluegrass Cat) that finished 2nd in this year's Kentucky Derby...raced at Tampa Bay Downs (finishing 2nd in the G3-Tampa Bay Derby). Even Bushfire, the filly that won this year's G1-Ashland Stakes (at Keeneland), raced at Tampa Bay Downs where she won the Florida Oaks.

As a matter of interest, a student of the racing game might recognize that many Calder/Florida racehorses are purchased by out of state interests (often from Califoirnia), and that they often succeed at a higher level (than they raced at in Florida) when they leave the Sunshine State (Example: Buzzards Bay). That might tell you something billyboy.

Respectfully...anyone that tells you that Florida is the weakest circuit in the USA, doesn't have their hand on the pulse of horseracing.

Respectfully

[surprisewind]

If Florida is being ranked the weakest circuit, than what on earth do people have to say about Nebraska racing? How about New Mexican racing? And the king that is Missouri racing
Hey, I like those tracks- but they don't top Florida in anyone's dreams.

None of those can even TOUCH South Dakota or Wyoming racing. Really, all the top stallions are here

[pretender]

surprisewind,

No surprise there, all your stallions have high AEI.

are south dakota and Wyoming in the same circuit or are they in separate circuits?

[billyboy2674]

I appreciate all the information given,and want to reiterate that it hasn't been much since I started looking into horse racing,I got the Florida assumption from a supposed racing fan I know and meant no insult.
I will now "shoot him off" as someone I cannot and will not listen to.
In the next couple of days I will be visiting Arlington Park,here in Illinois.


But I do feel that my main inquiry wasn't addressed because of the Florida comment being so adverse ,so I'll ask it again:

Potentially,can the next big thing,say an Aydar,Spectacular Bid etc,come from one of these weaker racing circuits from anywhere in the world?
Say Jamaica or Mexico?
That's what I want to know and thanks to again to all who helped me find out about the better tracks in North America.

[Ill-bred]

Laws of probability say the next super horse would come from an area with access to the best stallions and mares -- such as Kentucky or Florida. But anything is possible.

Enjoy your trip to Arlington. It's a grand track, one of the best facilities in the country.

[FOS]

hi billyboy2674

Potentially,can the next big thing,say an Aydar,Spectacular Bid etc,come from one of these weaker racing circuits from anywhere in the world?
Say Jamaica or Mexico?

That's what I want to know and thanks to again to all who helped me find out about the better tracks in North America.

billyboy2674...yes it's possible, why not? But many might agree, the odds of that are vvveeeeerrrrrrry long (to say the least).

Regardless...an example of a brilliant and TOP class racehorse that many might agree came from what you describe as "one of these weaker racing circuits" (your words), although not Jamaica or Mexico, is Bold Forbes.

He started his racing career winning by huge margins versus his competition in Puerto Rico, at El Commandante. After exposing his tremendous superiority versus whatever two-year-olds were available as competition in Puerto Rico, Bold Forbes was shipped to New York to see how he might fare there. The flamboyant Cuban-born trainer Laz Barrera was entrusted to care for and train the colt.

Barrera proved with Bold Forbes that the young colt was a lot more than just superior to his two-year-old competition in Puerto Rico. Barrera won many TOP races with the colt including the 1976 Kentucky Derby and the Belmont. Bold Forbes was honored as the eclipse award winning Champion 3-Year-Old Male. As an aside to Bold Forbes...I feel that it must be noted (since you seem to be attempting to learn something about thoroughbred horseracing) that Laz Barrera subsequently trained Affirmed also, the GREAT colt who won the Triple Crown in 1978...three races in a row in which Alydar (who you mentioned above) finished 2nd to Barrera-trained Champion and Horse of the Year to be, Affirmed.

Back to Bold Forbes...upon his retirement from racing, he was syndicated and stood at Stone Farm (in Paris, Kentucky).

Yes, Bold Forbes started strutting his stuff in what most might consider to be a "weaker" (your word) circuit...but he proved to be quite special.

All things considered...I would expect that Bold Forbes' accomplishments and the fact that he started his racing career as a 2-yo in Puerto Rico might answer the question that you asked "Potentially,can the next big thing,say an Aydar,Spectacular Bid etc,come from one of these weaker racing circuits from anywhere in the world?"

Thoughts?

Respectfully

[billyboy2674]

Enjoy your trip to Arlington. It's a grand track, one of the best facilities in the country.

Thanks so much-I'm looking forward to it.

FOS and Ill-bred,answers was looking for.
So,I wonder,is it just access to the best mares and stallies which equate grand success,or are there other determinant factors as well(stable quality,trainer quality etc).
I'm just fascinated with the sport and want to learn all I can.

[billyboy2674]

And speaking of Bold Forbes,another horse named Mister Frisky also ran in Puerto Rico and almost did grand things in the U.S as well.Seems they have a good luck charm down there.