Phalaris Lines: Too many Phalaris lines in modern thoroughbreds may just be the cause of unsoundness. Looking over the Horses of the Year for the last 20 years I found that very few Phalaris lines were present in these champions (Usually less than 4 lines to Phalaris in the 5 generation pedigree). Todays racehorse is bred for speed more so than in the past and Phalaris is the dominant sire line and broodmare sire line. If one looks at the bloodhorse magazine sire list based on gross earnings one finds that of the top 25 stallions ONLY one has a NON-PHALARIS sire line--Pleasant Tap. So thats 96% of the top 25 sires that have a Phalaris sire line. The major players in American racing are Northern Dancer, Raise A Native, Turn-To, and Nasrullah all of which were Phalaris line stallions.
In order to develop more soundness and durability in the thoroughbred breeders should be looking to infuse more NONPHALARIS blood in the thoroughbred.
phalaris lines spell speed at the expense of soundness
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louis finochio
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John Nerhud did not breed TB with 8-12 crosses of Phalaris. I have researched his matings and JN would use a stallion that had speed and mate that stallion with those old NP sire line mares to give their offspring soundness.
Are we to see the likes of those great TB of the past that Stancaris posted.
Only time will tell, but if one does surface, it will have the underpining of jelly.
Are we to see the likes of those great TB of the past that Stancaris posted.
Only time will tell, but if one does surface, it will have the underpining of jelly.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
louis finochio wrote:John Nerhud did not breed TB with 8-12 crosses of Phalaris.
Nerud was breeding 30 YEARS AGO!
They didn't HAVE horses with 12 crosses of Phalaris because there was not a high number of horses with 6 crosses yet, let alone two horses with 6 crosses being bred to each other.
Louis, you do understand that 40 years ago, it was almost impossible to breed a horse with 12 lines of Phalaris because it was almost impossible to find 2 horses with 6 lines? It takes TIME to breed enough generations with the multiple crosses. Even back then, breeding 2x2 was not that common so you generally had to be in the third generation before you were even seeing inbreeding to Phalaris (grandson to granddaughter 3x3). It would take about 10 years from P's first crop before you could do that. We're only just now starting to see horses with 5 and 6 lines to Northern Dancer and he's been dead for 16 years.
It's called logic and this premise that ONE horse from 100 years ago is responsible for the unsoundness of hundreds of thousand horses of today is not just illogical, it's down right stupid.
If you're going to blame Phalaris, why not take it one step back and blame St. Simon. Hell let's go back a couple hundred years and blame Eclipse.
Never mind the fact that the SAME bloodlines with the SAME number of lines to Phalaris are found in steeplechasers who carry MORE weight, run farther and JUMP.
If all of this hyperbolic BS about Phalaris were true, we wouldn't have bottom feeder claimers running ever 2 weeks and some horses running on 5 days rest.
Additionally, you can't breed for "unsoundness" anymore than you can breed for "soundness." You can breed for or away from physical characteristics that may lead to one or the other, but there is no such thing as a "soundness" chromosome.
phalaris lines
To say that Phalaris lines have no influence at all regarding the soundness of the modern thoroughbred is turning a blind eye to a distinct possibility.
Why is it that 16 of the 22 BC Classic winners have at least one Nonphalaris side ( sire line or broodmare sire line)? Thats 72% winners. In the general population only around 20% of the runners carry a nonphalaris side. Why is there such a great difference? Could it be that the presence of nonphalaris line stallions adds stamina. Horses with a Nonphalaris side have an impact value of 1.40 in the Classic. They are winning the Classic 40% more often than statistical expectation.
Why is it that 9 of the last 16 Derby winners have at least one nonphalaris side? The percent of starters in the Derby with at least one nonphalaris side is only 35%. These horses with a nonphalaris side are winning the roses 60% more often than is expected statistically.
Why is it that Horses of the Year have fewer Phalaris lines than horses from the general population?
Hybrid vigor occurs when different strains are crossed and the blend of genetic information is not as similar as the case with horses who are inbred to Raise A Native, Northern Dancer , Nasrullah each of which are Phalaris line horses.
Students of breeding may say that a horse from 1913 cannot be responsible for the present day problems of unsoundness but one must note that Northern Dancer, Raise A Native, Mr. Prospector, Bold Ruler, are major generators of the Phalaris sire line and Broodmare sire line so its not Phalaris himself thats the cause but rather the inbreeding to the above mentioned speed sires with the Phalaris sire line that may be causal.
All breeders want today is a horse that goes 21 seconds flat at the yearling sales and usually these types are filled with Phalaris lines.
If we ran more major races in this country at longer distances then we would see more breeding to nonphalaris lines.
The two major dirt races in this country are the Kentucky Derby and the BC Classic. In both of these races run at 10 furlongs we find horses with a nonphalaris side winning more often than chance alone would dictate. We do not find such a difference in other races at shorter distances.
Why is it that 16 of the 22 BC Classic winners have at least one Nonphalaris side ( sire line or broodmare sire line)? Thats 72% winners. In the general population only around 20% of the runners carry a nonphalaris side. Why is there such a great difference? Could it be that the presence of nonphalaris line stallions adds stamina. Horses with a Nonphalaris side have an impact value of 1.40 in the Classic. They are winning the Classic 40% more often than statistical expectation.
Why is it that 9 of the last 16 Derby winners have at least one nonphalaris side? The percent of starters in the Derby with at least one nonphalaris side is only 35%. These horses with a nonphalaris side are winning the roses 60% more often than is expected statistically.
Why is it that Horses of the Year have fewer Phalaris lines than horses from the general population?
Hybrid vigor occurs when different strains are crossed and the blend of genetic information is not as similar as the case with horses who are inbred to Raise A Native, Northern Dancer , Nasrullah each of which are Phalaris line horses.
Students of breeding may say that a horse from 1913 cannot be responsible for the present day problems of unsoundness but one must note that Northern Dancer, Raise A Native, Mr. Prospector, Bold Ruler, are major generators of the Phalaris sire line and Broodmare sire line so its not Phalaris himself thats the cause but rather the inbreeding to the above mentioned speed sires with the Phalaris sire line that may be causal.
All breeders want today is a horse that goes 21 seconds flat at the yearling sales and usually these types are filled with Phalaris lines.
If we ran more major races in this country at longer distances then we would see more breeding to nonphalaris lines.
The two major dirt races in this country are the Kentucky Derby and the BC Classic. In both of these races run at 10 furlongs we find horses with a nonphalaris side winning more often than chance alone would dictate. We do not find such a difference in other races at shorter distances.
Re: phalaris lines
stancaris wrote:To say that Phalaris lines have no influence at all regarding the soundness of the modern thoroughbred is turning a blind eye to a distinct possibility.
Possibility.
NOT FACT.
And every time this "Phalaris disease" gets brought up, it's spoken as if it were fact.
The FACT is there is NO documented, scientific PROOF that horses are inherently more unsound today than they were 30, 60 or 90 years ago. There's not one shred of proof that horses have lower bone density today than they did in Phalaris' time.
THAT is what is needed. A comprehensive study as to what physical characteristics have changed between now and the supposed era of the super horse.
It's not like you are talking about a documented genetic mutation as a cause, something like HERDA or HYPP. You're talking in smoke and mirror terms of something vaguely alluded to as "unsoundness."
You're looking for a bogeyman and blaming him for "unsoundness" when you can't even point to a specific thing that inbreeding to Phalaris contributed and is the sole source of to MAKE them "unsound." You don't have a genetic mutation or a physical characteristic that ONLY breeding to Phalaris would produce, but you're going to blame him for making hundreds of thousands of horses "unsound" when they aren't even all breaking down from the same thing.
Times have changed. High dollar horses make fewer starts today for a myriad or reasons -- chief among them: STUD FEES. The more they lose, the more they lose out.
High stakes horses today are coddled and their races cherry picked to the nth degree while their "unsound" counterparts are run into the ground and drugged to the gills.
Again, if you are going to blame ONE horse from 100 years ago, why not blame St. Simon. Horses are more inbred to him than they are to Phalaris. Or how about Eclipse... do you have any idea how many lines to Eclipse the modern Thoroughbred has?
It's absolutely foolish to blame ONE HORSE from 100 years ago when we have 100s of horses with identical lines -- some go on to a long career as a steeplechaser carrying 150lbs for 4 miles, some never make it out of the claiming ranks and making 100 starts and the very select few make 10 starts bow a tendon and off to the majikal stud shed for $50k a foal.
It's completely illogical to blame ONE HORSE from 100 years ago when the REAL culprit is MODERN "training" practices ... like pushing 17 month old babies to run 10 second furlongs. Like sealing and compacting the hard ground they run over. Like pumping them full of all sorts of drugs for no other reason that the other trainer at the end of the barn does as well.
People are blinded by horses like Barbaro. They see these big name horses make a handful of starts before some minor injury (in most cases) forces them to retire and think that is the norm, when the FACT is they represent probably less than 10% of the racing population. The FACT is most horses DO make more than 6 starts in a year -- they just don't do it at the G1 level.
Stop looking at the Barbaros and thinking they are the norm. We only hear about the million dollar stakes horses who break down after 5 starts... we never hear about the 100 claimers who make 50-90 starts then wind up in someone's backyard or knackers yard.
phalaris lines
So, are you saying that the fact that horses with a nonphalaris side win the BC Classic and Kentucky Derby more often than chance alone is totally unrelated to stamina in the modern thoroughbred.
The results of pedigree studies in the Derby and BC Classic indicate that having a Nonphalaris side is an advantage in these ten furlong races where stamina and toughness rule.
Would you say it is just coincidental that these types are outperforming their opportunities in these two major route races on dirt in our country?
Is it just coincidence that Horses of the Year have fewer Phalaris lines than horses from the general population?
These studies may not be absolute proof that a Nonphalaris side bestows more stamina but it sure looks like a nonphalaris side is beneficial in the modern thoroughbred, particularly if its a horse running at the highest level of competition in a distance race (10 furlongs) or a horse that achieves Horse of the Year honors.
The results of pedigree studies in the Derby and BC Classic indicate that having a Nonphalaris side is an advantage in these ten furlong races where stamina and toughness rule.
Would you say it is just coincidental that these types are outperforming their opportunities in these two major route races on dirt in our country?
Is it just coincidence that Horses of the Year have fewer Phalaris lines than horses from the general population?
These studies may not be absolute proof that a Nonphalaris side bestows more stamina but it sure looks like a nonphalaris side is beneficial in the modern thoroughbred, particularly if its a horse running at the highest level of competition in a distance race (10 furlongs) or a horse that achieves Horse of the Year honors.
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louis finochio
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When a student of pedigrees researches those old sires lines of the past, they will find those mares that bred those TB that made between 65 and 100 lifetime starts.
When those NP sire lines died out or didnt reproduce their like the soundness in the breed is running on E.
When the speed of Phalaris and the stamina of NP are mated together their is a desired blend of middle distance produced in their offspring.
If and when the NP sire lines become extinct the breed will become shattered glass.
When those NP sire lines died out or didnt reproduce their like the soundness in the breed is running on E.
When the speed of Phalaris and the stamina of NP are mated together their is a desired blend of middle distance produced in their offspring.
If and when the NP sire lines become extinct the breed will become shattered glass.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
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louis finochio
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Re: phalaris lines
stancaris wrote:To say that Phalaris lines have no influence at all regarding the soundness of the modern thoroughbred is turning a blind eye to a distinct possibility.
Why is it that 16 of the 22 BC Classic winners have at least one Nonphalaris side ( sire line or broodmare sire line)? Thats 72% winners. In the general population only around 20% of the runners carry a nonphalaris side. Why is there such a great difference? Could it be that the presence of nonphalaris line stallions adds stamina. Horses with a Nonphalaris side have an impact value of 1.40 in the Classic. They are winning the Classic 40% more often than statistical expectation.
Why is it that 9 of the last 16 Derby winners have at least one nonphalaris side? The percent of starters in the Derby with at least one nonphalaris side is only 35%. These horses with a nonphalaris side are winning the roses 60% more often than is expected statistically.
Why is it that Horses of the Year have fewer Phalaris lines than horses from the general population?
Hybrid vigor occurs when different strains are crossed and the blend of genetic information is not as similar as the case with horses who are inbred to Raise A Native, Northern Dancer , Nasrullah each of which are Phalaris line horses.
Students of breeding may say that a horse from 1913 cannot be responsible for the present day problems of unsoundness but one must note that Northern Dancer, Raise A Native, Mr. Prospector, Bold Ruler, are major generators of the Phalaris sire line and Broodmare sire line so its not Phalaris himself thats the cause but rather the inbreeding to the above mentioned speed sires with the Phalaris sire line that may be causal.
All breeders want today is a horse that goes 21 seconds flat at the yearling sales and usually these types are filled with Phalaris lines.
If we ran more major races in this country at longer distances then we would see more breeding to nonphalaris lines.
The two major dirt races in this country are the Kentucky Derby and the BC Classic. In both of these races run at 10 furlongs we find horses with a nonphalaris side winning more often than chance alone would dictate. We do not find such a difference in other races at shorter distances.
hi Sam,
hmmmmmmmmmmm, wonder why?
there are 2 planet's floating in the obyss of time..........
indipendent of all the law's of gravity..............
Regard's Siegy,
Flora is beginning of biology, chemistry is master.
Breeders Cup Classic Stats
Stan:
I question your stats. They seem to be "manufactured" to support your argument. If Phalaris is the cancer that you suggest, then cancer anywhere is evil. Phalaris is Phalaris, what difference does it make whether it is from the sireline or damline, or in the 5th or 7th generation? I have not looked at Derby winners yet (hope someone else does) but if you examine a standard nine generation pedigree of these classic winners, in the last 18 years EVERY classic winner has Phalaris on both sides of the pedigree. My conclusion would be that to win the Breeders Cup Classic, you have to have Phalaris on both sides of the pedigree. Please provide more details of your study and research. Respectfully not in agreement.
2005-Saint Liam
2004-Ghostzapper
2003-Pleasantly Perfect
2002-Volponi
2001-Tiznow
2000-Tiznow
1999-Cat Thief
1998-Awesome Again
1997-Skip Away
1996-Alphabet Soup
1995-Cigar
1994-Concern
1993-Arcangues
1992-A.P. Indy
1991-Black Tie Affair
1990-Unbridled
1989-Sunday Silence
1988-Alysheba
1987-Ferdinand
1986-Skywalker
1985-Proud Truth
1984-Wild Again
Of the first 4 winners only the French horse, Proud Truth, appears Phalaris free and that was over 20 years ago.
I question your stats. They seem to be "manufactured" to support your argument. If Phalaris is the cancer that you suggest, then cancer anywhere is evil. Phalaris is Phalaris, what difference does it make whether it is from the sireline or damline, or in the 5th or 7th generation? I have not looked at Derby winners yet (hope someone else does) but if you examine a standard nine generation pedigree of these classic winners, in the last 18 years EVERY classic winner has Phalaris on both sides of the pedigree. My conclusion would be that to win the Breeders Cup Classic, you have to have Phalaris on both sides of the pedigree. Please provide more details of your study and research. Respectfully not in agreement.
2005-Saint Liam
2004-Ghostzapper
2003-Pleasantly Perfect
2002-Volponi
2001-Tiznow
2000-Tiznow
1999-Cat Thief
1998-Awesome Again
1997-Skip Away
1996-Alphabet Soup
1995-Cigar
1994-Concern
1993-Arcangues
1992-A.P. Indy
1991-Black Tie Affair
1990-Unbridled
1989-Sunday Silence
1988-Alysheba
1987-Ferdinand
1986-Skywalker
1985-Proud Truth
1984-Wild Again
Of the first 4 winners only the French horse, Proud Truth, appears Phalaris free and that was over 20 years ago.
Re: phalaris lines
stancaris wrote:Would you say it is just coincidental that these types are outperforming their opportunities in these two major route races on dirt in our country?
Is it just coincidence that Horses of the Year have fewer Phalaris lines than horses from the general population?
First off, the idea that you and Louis will ignore lines to Phalaris because they are daughters and not sons is the first reason I think your theory is laughable and full of holes.
The short answer is Yes. It's the same kind of coincidence that had Mr. Prospector taking 20 years to sire a Derby winner and Raise A Native 35+ years to be the broodmare sireline of a Derby winner.
10-15 years from now, your lauded "Breeders' Cup and Derby Winners with fewer than the norm lines to Phalaris" is going to be null and void because fewer and fewer horses with less than 10 lines will be bred. It's called attrition. 10-15 years from now, the number of 10 line Phalaris winners will be about the same as less than 10 and 40 years from now, the numbers of 10+ lines will swamp the less than 10s.
Again, until you have DOCUMENTED SCIENTIFIC PROOF that Phalaris AND ONLY Phalaris is the GENETIC CAUSE of a SPECIFIC characteristic that you vaguely refer to as "unsoundness" ... you're blowing smoke and sound foolish.
louis finochio wrote:Sam: What is your plan to breed back the soundness in the breed without using the NP sire lines ?
That presupposes that I think the breed IS unsound.
I don't.
"Trainers" use 'unsound' training methods. PEOPLE breakdown horses. Left to their own devices, horses don't generally bow tendons or snap legs.
Please point out a specific characteristic that could ONLY come from Phalaris and no other contributer.
Better yet, please define "Unsoundness" in clear and concise terms and present documented scientific proof (as in a study showing bone density is less today than it was 40 years ago).