Earlier this spring in answer to an inquiry I made in this section titled "Stallion Selection for Falcon's Eye," hpkingjr wrote:
"Additionally although there are about 50 or so inbred Graded stakes winners inbred to Mr. P, the expected number is 4 times greater than the real number (1/4 of the expected numbers based on opportunity). This is based on the Ventura Geoscore from one of the postling members here. (libean) Very COOL tool. His info is from the Gr 1 Goldmine software."
I have heard pros and cons about inbreeding to Mr. Prospector in various forums over the years and I would say the the balance fell on the anti-Mr. Prospector inbreeding side. As I understand the Gr1Goldmine software and the Ventura Geoscore from the quote above as well as discussions on other forums, it weighs the "actual vs. expected" results of a given cross.
I would like to hear some opinions about whether inbreeding to Mr. Prospector is good or bad?
Also, does it matter from which offspring one inbreeds back to him? This year I sent Falcon's Eye to Go For Gin so there is no inbreeding to Mr. Prospector. However, her yearling filly is by Grindstone and, thus 4x4 to Mr. Prospector through two sons, Fappiano and Seeking the Gold. Would this cross be expected to perform better or worse than (for discussions sake) say if she were 4x4 to Mr. Prospector via Gone West and Woodman?
Inbreeding to Mr. Prospector and Gr1Goldmine question
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Douglas Brown
- Weanling
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:56 pm
- Location: Maryland
Inbreeding to Mr. P
Fappiano is the leading conduit by far. I think he is on one side of the other in 18 of the 52 horses who have won graded stakes races when inbred to Mr. P.
52 SEEMS to me to be pretty low considering his immense popularity and long standing leading of the broodmare sires list. Mr. P had roughly 500 more foals than Northern Dancer. Northern Dancer is 9 years older than Mr. P. Breeding trends have increased the books of most stallions considerably when compared to ND's time. So, with 9 years head start on Mr. P but starting with 500 fewer foals, Northern Dancer has not quite 1000 Graded Stakes winners to Mr. P's 52. Like ND, inbreeding to Mr. P through daughters on both sides has been very unsuccessful. Very few of the 52 Mr. P inbreds have none of the common conduits on one side or the other. Other successful conduits include Gone West, Seeking the Gold, Woodman, Miswaki, Forty Niner and Conquistador Cielo. Less than a handful have none of these on one side or the other. I would probably be very reluctant to inbreed to Mr. P unless the mating included one of these conduits. Further, in a significant majority of the 52 successes, Northern Dancer appeared on one side or the other and frequently were inbred to him as well. I think only one or perhaps 2 of the 52 had none of the common conduits and were devoid of ND.
I think there is only one Fappiano/Seeking the Gold. I think there may be 2 Fappiano/Conquistador Cielo's and maybe 2 Fappiano/Gone West.
Hope this helps.
52 SEEMS to me to be pretty low considering his immense popularity and long standing leading of the broodmare sires list. Mr. P had roughly 500 more foals than Northern Dancer. Northern Dancer is 9 years older than Mr. P. Breeding trends have increased the books of most stallions considerably when compared to ND's time. So, with 9 years head start on Mr. P but starting with 500 fewer foals, Northern Dancer has not quite 1000 Graded Stakes winners to Mr. P's 52. Like ND, inbreeding to Mr. P through daughters on both sides has been very unsuccessful. Very few of the 52 Mr. P inbreds have none of the common conduits on one side or the other. Other successful conduits include Gone West, Seeking the Gold, Woodman, Miswaki, Forty Niner and Conquistador Cielo. Less than a handful have none of these on one side or the other. I would probably be very reluctant to inbreed to Mr. P unless the mating included one of these conduits. Further, in a significant majority of the 52 successes, Northern Dancer appeared on one side or the other and frequently were inbred to him as well. I think only one or perhaps 2 of the 52 had none of the common conduits and were devoid of ND.
I think there is only one Fappiano/Seeking the Gold. I think there may be 2 Fappiano/Conquistador Cielo's and maybe 2 Fappiano/Gone West.
Hope this helps.
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Douglas Brown
- Weanling
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:56 pm
- Location: Maryland
Inbreeding to Mr. P through daughters on both sides
jagger stated: "Like ND, inbreeding to Mr. P through daughters on both sides has been very unsuccessful."
I find this very interesting because of the number of times Mr. Prospector has been the leading Broodmare sire. I see inbreeding mainly through daughters for some of the other multiple-leading Broodmare sires (i.e. Buckpasser, Count Fleet, etc.) so it is surprising that Mr. Prospector doesn't do better. Do you think it is an "age" or "closeness" issue - these other sires are more generations removed?
I find this very interesting because of the number of times Mr. Prospector has been the leading Broodmare sire. I see inbreeding mainly through daughters for some of the other multiple-leading Broodmare sires (i.e. Buckpasser, Count Fleet, etc.) so it is surprising that Mr. Prospector doesn't do better. Do you think it is an "age" or "closeness" issue - these other sires are more generations removed?
Mr. P
I should probably clarify, Douglass. What I meant when I said inbreeding to Mr. P through daughters was that when the conduit on both sides, dam and sire, was a daughter of Mr. P. This type of inbreeding has been especially unsuccessful as is also the case with Northern Dancer.
Hope this clears things up.
Hope this clears things up.
There are some striking differences between Buckpasser and Mr. P, though. Buckpasser was known mainly as a "filly" sire, and until Montbrook came along, the Buckpasser male line sires were mostly considered failures. The other factor with Buckpasser is his direct descent from superstar broodmare *La Troienne, and inbreeding to La Troienne is a well established and successful pattern. I'm not sure it is inbreeding to Buckpasser per se that is successful, but perhaps the inbreeding to *LaTroienne.
Mr. P., on the other hand, was a superb sire of sires, and a superb sire of fillies. I think some folks are reluctant to inbreed to him due to conformation/soundness concerns. Definitely wouldn't want to in-breed a toed-out Mr. P granddaughter to a stallion with Mr. P as the broodmare sire.
Given the saturation of Mr. P in our pedigrees, it is getting rare to see anything that doesn't have a least one line to him. So like it not, we are likely to be linebreeding to him. Fappiano might be the best way since he was an atypical son.
Mr. P., on the other hand, was a superb sire of sires, and a superb sire of fillies. I think some folks are reluctant to inbreed to him due to conformation/soundness concerns. Definitely wouldn't want to in-breed a toed-out Mr. P granddaughter to a stallion with Mr. P as the broodmare sire.
Given the saturation of Mr. P in our pedigrees, it is getting rare to see anything that doesn't have a least one line to him. So like it not, we are likely to be linebreeding to him. Fappiano might be the best way since he was an atypical son.
There are some striking differences between Buckpasser and Mr. P, though. Buckpasser was known mainly as a "filly" sire, and until Montbrook came along, the Buckpasser male line sires were mostly considered failures. The other factor with Buckpasser is his direct descent from superstar broodmare *La Troienne, and inbreeding to La Troienne is a well established and successful pattern. I'm not sure it is inbreeding to Buckpasser per se that is successful, but perhaps the inbreeding to *LaTroienne.
Mr. P., on the other hand, was a superb sire of sires, and a superb sire of fillies. I think some folks are reluctant to inbreed to him due to conformation/soundness concerns. Definitely wouldn't want to in-breed a toed-out Mr. P granddaughter to a stallion with Mr. P as the broodmare sire.
Given the saturation of Mr. P in our pedigrees, it is getting rare to see anything that doesn't have a least one line to him. So like it not, we are likely to be linebreeding to him. Fappiano might be the best way since he was an atypical son.
Mr. P., on the other hand, was a superb sire of sires, and a superb sire of fillies. I think some folks are reluctant to inbreed to him due to conformation/soundness concerns. Definitely wouldn't want to in-breed a toed-out Mr. P granddaughter to a stallion with Mr. P as the broodmare sire.
Given the saturation of Mr. P in our pedigrees, it is getting rare to see anything that doesn't have a least one line to him. So like it not, we are likely to be linebreeding to him. Fappiano might be the best way since he was an atypical son.
Thanks Jagger. That's good to know. I have a foal on the way with the CC/Chimes inbreeding.
My thoughts were the reinforcement to Mr. P through an excellent son and outstanding daughter like Chimes might add something to the mix that two sons of Mr. P don't.
Laurie
My thoughts were the reinforcement to Mr. P through an excellent son and outstanding daughter like Chimes might add something to the mix that two sons of Mr. P don't.
Laurie
So many pedigrees...so little time. (C)
CC/Chimes
Laurie,
Other good things to look for in the mating is the presence of Northern Dancer. VERY few of the 52 successful Mr. P inbreedings had no showing of ND in the pedigree. Many of the 52, probably close to half, were also ND inbreds as well. Hopefully, you have ND somewhere in the CC/Chimes foal.
John
Other good things to look for in the mating is the presence of Northern Dancer. VERY few of the 52 successful Mr. P inbreedings had no showing of ND in the pedigree. Many of the 52, probably close to half, were also ND inbreds as well. Hopefully, you have ND somewhere in the CC/Chimes foal.
John