Can you clarify something for me.
We are constantly talking about Stakes Winners when comparing Sires, I am getting a feeling that the meaning of Stakes races in the US is far different to over here in the UK and we could be comparing completely different things.
We consider Stakes winners to be winners of Group races of which there are 30 Gr1, 37 Gr2 and 66 Gr3 (133 in total), in the US do you only count the 480 Graded stakes races or include what we consider Listed races in the stats as well?
Also when considering Sires isn't it easier for NY, CA and KY stallions to get more Graded Stakes winners because they hold more Gr races there (25.4%, 29% and 14.2%) respectively.
Stakes Races
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
Our two major bloodstock magazines, the Blood-Horse and Thoroughbred Times, include all black type winners according to the International Catalogue standards in a stallion's statistics, which would include listed races and even non-listed stakes races above a certain value (I believe the current cutoff is $50,000 for North American races). European-based sires get the same treatment as North American-based in the ratings, so the playing field is level as far as those rankings go.
Where a horse is bred in North America doesn't make much of a difference in its stakes-winning opportunities other than stakes restricted to horses in state-bred breeding programs. The vast majority of graded stakes in New York are not won by New York-breds. The keys are the animal's talent and the willingness of its connections to ship if that's what's needed.
Where a horse is bred in North America doesn't make much of a difference in its stakes-winning opportunities other than stakes restricted to horses in state-bred breeding programs. The vast majority of graded stakes in New York are not won by New York-breds. The keys are the animal's talent and the willingness of its connections to ship if that's what's needed.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis
-
NW Breeder
- Weanling
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:24 pm
- Location: Oregon
Colin;
1) California racing is arguably the toughest in the country, maybe the world. Unfortunately, our breeding and sales program here is light years behind our Kentucky neighbors. Generally speaking, Cal-breds can hold their own against KY and foreign breds in dirt races, but very few of them can handle outsiders in turf races. The best international outfits, including Juddmonte and Godolphin, race in California so its not hard to see why we're in a tough spot.
2) ANY stakes race (listed or restricted, such as state bred races) with a purse of $40,000 added or more receives black type in most U.S. catalogs. Recent changes excluded starter allowance races, sales stakes, and N/W 1 other than maiden race allowance races from this definition.
As I wrote earlier, virtually all American stallion registers, including Blood Horse, TB Times and state associations, give black type to horses which have won so-called (N) stakes races, i.e. races with added value LESS THAN $40,000. Many of these races are worth only a few thousand dollars. These (N) stakes winners are tabulated along with the genuine stakes winners in all calculations for the stallion (e.g. total number of stakes winners; percent of stakes winners to foals; percent of stakes winners to starters, etc.)
I find this practice VERY troubling. It misleads broodmare owners because it does not differentiate between real and fake black type. These (N) stakes winners are not recognized by the major sales companies (Keeneland, FasigTipton, Ocala Breeders, Barretts)--so why give them credence in a stallion register?
The REASON is that many stallion owners WANT and DEMAND that the (N) stakes winners by their stallions are included. I know this for a fact after much debate with Blood Horse, TB Times and my local breeders assn. It is a sham and should be abolished.
No wonder its confusing for you--most people in the U.S. don't even understand what's going on!
1) California racing is arguably the toughest in the country, maybe the world. Unfortunately, our breeding and sales program here is light years behind our Kentucky neighbors. Generally speaking, Cal-breds can hold their own against KY and foreign breds in dirt races, but very few of them can handle outsiders in turf races. The best international outfits, including Juddmonte and Godolphin, race in California so its not hard to see why we're in a tough spot.
2) ANY stakes race (listed or restricted, such as state bred races) with a purse of $40,000 added or more receives black type in most U.S. catalogs. Recent changes excluded starter allowance races, sales stakes, and N/W 1 other than maiden race allowance races from this definition.
As I wrote earlier, virtually all American stallion registers, including Blood Horse, TB Times and state associations, give black type to horses which have won so-called (N) stakes races, i.e. races with added value LESS THAN $40,000. Many of these races are worth only a few thousand dollars. These (N) stakes winners are tabulated along with the genuine stakes winners in all calculations for the stallion (e.g. total number of stakes winners; percent of stakes winners to foals; percent of stakes winners to starters, etc.)
I find this practice VERY troubling. It misleads broodmare owners because it does not differentiate between real and fake black type. These (N) stakes winners are not recognized by the major sales companies (Keeneland, FasigTipton, Ocala Breeders, Barretts)--so why give them credence in a stallion register?
The REASON is that many stallion owners WANT and DEMAND that the (N) stakes winners by their stallions are included. I know this for a fact after much debate with Blood Horse, TB Times and my local breeders assn. It is a sham and should be abolished.
No wonder its confusing for you--most people in the U.S. don't even understand what's going on!
[quote="Michael"]Colin;
1) California racing is arguably the toughest in the country, maybe the world. .......... Generally speaking, Cal-breds can hold their own against KY and foreign breds in dirt races, .........
I disagree. Cal-breds can't even hold their own against Florida breds, much less Kentucky breds. See Sunshine Millions results. Furthermore, in just a few short years, Cal-breds will not even be able to hold their own against Louisiana breds.
1) California racing is arguably the toughest in the country, maybe the world. .......... Generally speaking, Cal-breds can hold their own against KY and foreign breds in dirt races, .........
I disagree. Cal-breds can't even hold their own against Florida breds, much less Kentucky breds. See Sunshine Millions results. Furthermore, in just a few short years, Cal-breds will not even be able to hold their own against Louisiana breds.
[quote="LC
I disagree. Cal-breds can't even hold their own against Florida breds, much less Kentucky breds. See Sunshine Millions results. Furthermore, in just a few short years, Cal-breds will not even be able to hold their own against Louisiana breds.[/quote]
LC,
Yes, the Sunshine Millions events have been embarassing to Cal breds, I admit. However, if you look at stakes results throughout the year I think you'll see that Cal breds often pop up and win the big ones far more than you'd expect. And in almost every case their pedigrees would be far less fashionable than their counterparts. As has been discussed before on other threads, I attribute the great year round climate in California as the major reason why our horses are raised better than anywhere else.
I think the future for Cal breds bodes well because of this advantage. True, if the Indians have their way, our racing will be only a shadow of its former self; however there's no reason why our best horses can't compete out of state. They've been doing so for a long time.
Remember Tiznow?
I disagree. Cal-breds can't even hold their own against Florida breds, much less Kentucky breds. See Sunshine Millions results. Furthermore, in just a few short years, Cal-breds will not even be able to hold their own against Louisiana breds.[/quote]
LC,
Yes, the Sunshine Millions events have been embarassing to Cal breds, I admit. However, if you look at stakes results throughout the year I think you'll see that Cal breds often pop up and win the big ones far more than you'd expect. And in almost every case their pedigrees would be far less fashionable than their counterparts. As has been discussed before on other threads, I attribute the great year round climate in California as the major reason why our horses are raised better than anywhere else.
I think the future for Cal breds bodes well because of this advantage. True, if the Indians have their way, our racing will be only a shadow of its former self; however there's no reason why our best horses can't compete out of state. They've been doing so for a long time.
Remember Tiznow?
Hello LC and Michael and Colinsb,
LC...We understand that Ky dominates in the volume of foals category...but proportionately...it is clear...Florida-breds and Kentucky-breds consistently dominate in North American racing at the higher levels.
LC your comment regarding the Sunshine Millions was interesting...and speaks volumes...and yes the future looks very bright for Louisiana as a racing state...the purses (as a results of slots/gaming) have already been affected positively and look like they could become enormous...in years to come. Good luck.
Michael...Cal-breds are certainly worthy of merit but in general are rarely found in the "rarified air"...the same goes for N.Y.-breds...of course Cal-bred Free House earned over $3 mil, won the G1 Santa Anita Derby, G1 Pacific Classic and was classic placed in all three...the G1 Ky Derby, Preakness G1 and Belmont G1...
and NY-bred Funny Cide won the 2003 Ky Derby G1 and Preakness G1.
Obviously there have been some wonderful Cal-breds and N.Y.-breds...but the top ones seem to be few and far between.
As for top racing...Santa Anita...Hollywood Park and Del Mar are top-class...but be assured, Saratoga and Belmont Park take no back seat to anyone and (arguably) may be the two most difficult places to win in the United States...and Gulfstream Park in the winter is a very tough place to win also.
If there were a category for a difficult place to win...that is highly underrated...Calder would take the trophy hands-down.
Colinsb...I believe you will find that the major sales companies have agreed to comply with uniform standards established by an International Cataloguing Standards Committee...and adopted by members of SITA (Society of Int'l Thoroughbred Auctioneers) which was formed in the early 1980's. The 4 original member countries included U.S.A., England, Ireland and France.
A goal of the Int'l Cataloguing Standards Committee and SITA was to prevent inevitable discrepencies from one country to another in the criteria applied for determining races eligible for black-type in the various sales catalogues.
You may wish to contact the ICSC c/o The Jockey Club Information Systems, 821 Corporate Drive, Lexington, Ky 40503 USA...for detailed information.
Respectfully
LC...We understand that Ky dominates in the volume of foals category...but proportionately...it is clear...Florida-breds and Kentucky-breds consistently dominate in North American racing at the higher levels.
LC your comment regarding the Sunshine Millions was interesting...and speaks volumes...and yes the future looks very bright for Louisiana as a racing state...the purses (as a results of slots/gaming) have already been affected positively and look like they could become enormous...in years to come. Good luck.
Michael...Cal-breds are certainly worthy of merit but in general are rarely found in the "rarified air"...the same goes for N.Y.-breds...of course Cal-bred Free House earned over $3 mil, won the G1 Santa Anita Derby, G1 Pacific Classic and was classic placed in all three...the G1 Ky Derby, Preakness G1 and Belmont G1...
and NY-bred Funny Cide won the 2003 Ky Derby G1 and Preakness G1.
Obviously there have been some wonderful Cal-breds and N.Y.-breds...but the top ones seem to be few and far between.
As for top racing...Santa Anita...Hollywood Park and Del Mar are top-class...but be assured, Saratoga and Belmont Park take no back seat to anyone and (arguably) may be the two most difficult places to win in the United States...and Gulfstream Park in the winter is a very tough place to win also.
If there were a category for a difficult place to win...that is highly underrated...Calder would take the trophy hands-down.
Colinsb...I believe you will find that the major sales companies have agreed to comply with uniform standards established by an International Cataloguing Standards Committee...and adopted by members of SITA (Society of Int'l Thoroughbred Auctioneers) which was formed in the early 1980's. The 4 original member countries included U.S.A., England, Ireland and France.
A goal of the Int'l Cataloguing Standards Committee and SITA was to prevent inevitable discrepencies from one country to another in the criteria applied for determining races eligible for black-type in the various sales catalogues.
You may wish to contact the ICSC c/o The Jockey Club Information Systems, 821 Corporate Drive, Lexington, Ky 40503 USA...for detailed information.
Respectfully
Hi Michael
You stated "...I attribute the great year round climate in California as the major reason why our horses are raised better than anywhere else."
Michael...I assume you are being serious.
Have you not seen the resultant thoroughbreds raised in Ireland...or England...or France's Normandy coast...or Ocala with it's limerock substratum or Lexington with it's bluegrass (granted Lexington can have difficult sometimes harsh winters)...and how they perform...often at the highest levels.
Good luck to you always...but if you believe that California is the place "better than anywhere else" to raise thoroughbred race horses I would appreciate if you would please explain to me why your wonderful state is superior to Lexington (vicinity), Kentucky...Ocala/Marion County, Florida...parts of Ireland, parts of England and the Normandy coast of France...when it comes to raising thoroughbred race horses (Ill make it easy on you, let's limit it to the northern hemisphere).
You attribute the "major" reason for success to year round climate? Climate alone does not cut it...it's only one ingredient.
Being proud of where you are is admirable...I look forward to your comments.
Respectfully
You stated "...I attribute the great year round climate in California as the major reason why our horses are raised better than anywhere else."
Michael...I assume you are being serious.
Have you not seen the resultant thoroughbreds raised in Ireland...or England...or France's Normandy coast...or Ocala with it's limerock substratum or Lexington with it's bluegrass (granted Lexington can have difficult sometimes harsh winters)...and how they perform...often at the highest levels.
Good luck to you always...but if you believe that California is the place "better than anywhere else" to raise thoroughbred race horses I would appreciate if you would please explain to me why your wonderful state is superior to Lexington (vicinity), Kentucky...Ocala/Marion County, Florida...parts of Ireland, parts of England and the Normandy coast of France...when it comes to raising thoroughbred race horses (Ill make it easy on you, let's limit it to the northern hemisphere).
You attribute the "major" reason for success to year round climate? Climate alone does not cut it...it's only one ingredient.
Being proud of where you are is admirable...I look forward to your comments.
Respectfully
I had a hard time in raising horses in CA (east bay of SF) because of its scant pastureland, expensive bedding and hay costs. I don't feed alfalfa and the only thing under 10 bucks a bale was oat hay (of dubious quality).
Granted I did not live there long so I did not have a chance to find my niche in the community. Now it looks as though I'll be moving back with the ponies so for those California people can you clue me in on the great places to be? My husbands job will most likely take us back to the bay area...with a slight possibility of ending up in SO. Cal.
I don't want to be doomed to pipe corrals and dry lots! Sorry this is off topic but it seemed there was at least one person here who is savvy about the horse scene there.
Granted I did not live there long so I did not have a chance to find my niche in the community. Now it looks as though I'll be moving back with the ponies so for those California people can you clue me in on the great places to be? My husbands job will most likely take us back to the bay area...with a slight possibility of ending up in SO. Cal.
I don't want to be doomed to pipe corrals and dry lots! Sorry this is off topic but it seemed there was at least one person here who is savvy about the horse scene there.
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
The wonders of the bluegrass and limestone are marvelous inventions of the Lexington Chamber of Commerce. Whatever benefits young horses may derive from these conditions is more than offset by the 3-4 months of inclement weather and 3-4 months of stifling heat and humidity offered by Kentucky. Young horses there are raised much like wardens of Juvenile Hall--inside dark buildings with only occasional forays into civilization. Contrary to what a lot of hardboots may claim, God did not reveal himself from the clouds to decree that Lexington (or Ocala) were the only places on earth to raise good racehorses.
Ever wonder why those huge paddocks in KY are usually empty? Most yearlings are indoors, being raised in hot houses so they look their best on sales day. At the same time, California yearlings are running and playing 24/7/365. How can anyone say that KY breds are raised better than Cal-breds?
In the mid 1950's Stoner Creek Stud owner John D. Hertz developed a 120 acre parcel in southern California. He shipped all his KY bred weanlings west every year to take advantage of the wonderful climate he found here. In fact, he was widely quoted as saying that California was a superior place to raise Thoroughbreds. He could get away with saying that in Kentucky, because he was an Illinois native! Unfortunately, the price of the real estate on which his CA farm was built skyrocketed just six years after he built the place, and he sold out. I grew up on one of the new homes built on Stoner Creek Farm West.
Ocala is a fine place to raise horses, if you believe that constant steam baths are good for lungs and hooves.
Proposition: If the world's best bloodlines--i.e. those that populate the pastures (woops, meant to say the barns) of Kentucky, Florida, Ireland, and England--were transported to California; and at the same time all California bloodstock was dispersed among those same places, the net result would be far more top class racehorses being produced. California would by far outshine the other states and countries under this scenario. Greater exposure to Mother Nature and the myriad of advantages they would receive from consistent exercise would prove its mettle. Conversely, Ocala's leading stallion would no doubt become Swiss Yodeler, because he throws exactly the type of horse most Floridians covet--the two year speedball who can't run past six furlongs and is retired by age three. And Kentuckians would have to find a new catchy slogan to attract new breeders to the Bluegrass, because the smart ones would have moved to California!
Ever wonder why those huge paddocks in KY are usually empty? Most yearlings are indoors, being raised in hot houses so they look their best on sales day. At the same time, California yearlings are running and playing 24/7/365. How can anyone say that KY breds are raised better than Cal-breds?
In the mid 1950's Stoner Creek Stud owner John D. Hertz developed a 120 acre parcel in southern California. He shipped all his KY bred weanlings west every year to take advantage of the wonderful climate he found here. In fact, he was widely quoted as saying that California was a superior place to raise Thoroughbreds. He could get away with saying that in Kentucky, because he was an Illinois native! Unfortunately, the price of the real estate on which his CA farm was built skyrocketed just six years after he built the place, and he sold out. I grew up on one of the new homes built on Stoner Creek Farm West.
Ocala is a fine place to raise horses, if you believe that constant steam baths are good for lungs and hooves.
Proposition: If the world's best bloodlines--i.e. those that populate the pastures (woops, meant to say the barns) of Kentucky, Florida, Ireland, and England--were transported to California; and at the same time all California bloodstock was dispersed among those same places, the net result would be far more top class racehorses being produced. California would by far outshine the other states and countries under this scenario. Greater exposure to Mother Nature and the myriad of advantages they would receive from consistent exercise would prove its mettle. Conversely, Ocala's leading stallion would no doubt become Swiss Yodeler, because he throws exactly the type of horse most Floridians covet--the two year speedball who can't run past six furlongs and is retired by age three. And Kentuckians would have to find a new catchy slogan to attract new breeders to the Bluegrass, because the smart ones would have moved to California!
Michael,
You sound angry and defensive. Not necessary.
You also sound inexperienced and not very well versed or travelled.
Historically there is a very small percentage of Cal-bred black-type stakes-winners that excell in open company (as compared to Ky-breds or Fla-breds)...to insist otherwise exposes a novice.
Without restricted stakes...Cal-bred stakes-winners would be a very rare commodity.
There are many beautiful places in the world that have year-round climates that are certainly the equivalent of (or better than) California...and weather and/or climate in and of itself is only one of the many important ingredients necessary to raise quality thoroughbreds that are intended to race successfully at the highest level.
If you believe that's all that's necessary in raising a good horse...I wish you lots of luck...you'll need it.
As for Swiss Yodeler...he makes a nice regional stallion for you.
As for Lexington's sometimes harsh winters...they can be difficult (actually moreso on the people than the horses). Repairing burst water pipes in very cold weather is a miserable undertaking...but reality is horses are out in the coldest weather and significant snowfalls. They love it and actually thrive in it.
As for sales-prepping...some farms (not just in Ky) do "hot house" horses...but that's a personal preference...I'm not particularly a fan of that.
The Florida heat...yeah that's Miami...but Ocala is rarely like the sometimes swealtering South Florida/Miami heat and humidity of the summer.
For the most part horses can be (and often are) out year 'round in Ocala. Plenty of sunshine (year 'round), often gentle breezes and pastures abundant with 100 year-old (and older) "grand-daddy" oaks offering shade. Temperatures are usually cool or mild to moderate/warm or hot. It's a fabulous place to raise top-class thoroughbreds (such as Fla-bred Southern Image who arguably is the best horse in California...or the world for that matter). The proof is in the pudding...that cannot be said for California.
It is also clear that the limerock substratum under Ocala/Marion County (and some parts of surrounding counties) is credited with offering significant benefits to the young ones. For you to discount that exposes (again) naivete.
Ireland...and England produce grand healthy horses but the Normandy coast of France also has a history of producing top-class horses that compete among the world's elite. You know that...many from accross the pond migrate to California tracks and annihilate your stock.
You're pigeon-holing yourself. Get on a plane and visit those places (sounds like you need a vacation anyway). You may see and learn something that will offer some clarity to your apparent unclear vision...and you may learn something about what it really takes to raise a good horse.
Good luck to you and your Cal-breds.
Respectfully
You sound angry and defensive. Not necessary.
You also sound inexperienced and not very well versed or travelled.
Historically there is a very small percentage of Cal-bred black-type stakes-winners that excell in open company (as compared to Ky-breds or Fla-breds)...to insist otherwise exposes a novice.
Without restricted stakes...Cal-bred stakes-winners would be a very rare commodity.
There are many beautiful places in the world that have year-round climates that are certainly the equivalent of (or better than) California...and weather and/or climate in and of itself is only one of the many important ingredients necessary to raise quality thoroughbreds that are intended to race successfully at the highest level.
If you believe that's all that's necessary in raising a good horse...I wish you lots of luck...you'll need it.
As for Swiss Yodeler...he makes a nice regional stallion for you.
As for Lexington's sometimes harsh winters...they can be difficult (actually moreso on the people than the horses). Repairing burst water pipes in very cold weather is a miserable undertaking...but reality is horses are out in the coldest weather and significant snowfalls. They love it and actually thrive in it.
As for sales-prepping...some farms (not just in Ky) do "hot house" horses...but that's a personal preference...I'm not particularly a fan of that.
The Florida heat...yeah that's Miami...but Ocala is rarely like the sometimes swealtering South Florida/Miami heat and humidity of the summer.
For the most part horses can be (and often are) out year 'round in Ocala. Plenty of sunshine (year 'round), often gentle breezes and pastures abundant with 100 year-old (and older) "grand-daddy" oaks offering shade. Temperatures are usually cool or mild to moderate/warm or hot. It's a fabulous place to raise top-class thoroughbreds (such as Fla-bred Southern Image who arguably is the best horse in California...or the world for that matter). The proof is in the pudding...that cannot be said for California.
It is also clear that the limerock substratum under Ocala/Marion County (and some parts of surrounding counties) is credited with offering significant benefits to the young ones. For you to discount that exposes (again) naivete.
Ireland...and England produce grand healthy horses but the Normandy coast of France also has a history of producing top-class horses that compete among the world's elite. You know that...many from accross the pond migrate to California tracks and annihilate your stock.
You're pigeon-holing yourself. Get on a plane and visit those places (sounds like you need a vacation anyway). You may see and learn something that will offer some clarity to your apparent unclear vision...and you may learn something about what it really takes to raise a good horse.
Good luck to you and your Cal-breds.
Respectfully