Barbaro Update: Not all that good

[geowarrior]

I just read that Barbaro's condition has deteriorated, and new separation of the laminitic foot has occurred. I did wonder if putting that cast on might have a negative effect. Sometimes covering or enclosing organic material that is experiencing regrowth has the opposite effect than desired.

I guess he won't be leaving hospital any time soon.

I don't think Barbaro was unsound. I think it's possible he injured himself with his pre-race gate break or as Sam says, he took a bad step (or of course a combination of both). I know that he was flighty in the paddock and that sometimes can be a sign of trouble, but Barbaro in his heyday was known to be pretty flighty at the best of times, and so I don't think one could blame his connections for not picking up on it. Barbaro - a typical mild-mannered Dynaformer son. Also, although it's possible, I don't think that trainer error in the conditioning played a part either, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, so the story goes, Michael Matz grossly overtrained his horse for his first Olympic competition with disastrous results (25 faults in the preliminary round or something like that?). Apparently he was very keen to avoid ever doing something like that again, so it seems unlikely that Barbaro was overconditioned. I also don't think he was underconditioned or weak, as the ESPN female reporter at the Preakness noted that the most impressive horses in the paddock were Bernardini and Barbaro, and she compared Barbaro to some of his fellow Derby competitors, saying that several of them looked as though the Derby had taken a toll. If he was under-trained coming into the Derby, I think the race would have taken a noticeable toll.

I think that they should be patient, and stop dickering around with that foot. I have to say I agree that the foot will kill him in the end and that the end will come sooner rather than later. I don't know that we can judge Richardson or the Jacksons for not euthanizing him when the laminitis developed first. A beloved animal will tell you when it's time to go, and if Barbaro looked at them with a bright eye then who can blame them for wanting his life to continue. I don't think financial considerations are that important. To my mind Barbaro has been worth more dead (insurance) than alive since the injury.

Although that last just brought an interesting question to mind. How long would Barbaro have to live beyond the injury for the insurance company to argue that his demise was not related to the original injury? And when does the policy expire?

[Sam]

Although that last just brought an interesting question to mind. How long would Barbaro have to live beyond the injury for the insurance company to argue that his demise was not related to the original injury?

That will be something an army of lawyers and vets battle out in court.

I'm really surprised the horse is still alive. I'd set the over/under at November.

[BJ]

I don't know that we can judge Richardson or the Jacksons for not euthanizing him when the laminitis developed first. A beloved animal will tell you when it's time to go, and if Barbaro looked at them with a bright eye then who can blame them for wanting his life to continue.

I agree about the "not judging" part. I don't agree that the animal will tell you when it is time to go. I think by the time the animal does that, it is LONG PAST time to let them go.

I unfortunately have watched that twice in the last year. Most recently w/a 4 y/o crippled QH gelding. The most enduring spirit...who was bucking and farting in his stall and pen and gobbling carrots up to the minutes before he was euthanized. He was so drugged, so we could all say good-bye, (just moments before) that he could barely stand. He balanced himself on 3 legs, holding his incredibly unstable leg up off the ground. He would have endured more, if we'd asked him to.

So...no, they don't let you know! We have to be willing to see because they will endure and do what is asked of them.

[majxmom]

Once I led out a stiff 25yo mare to be vaccinated, and I asked the vet how much more life he thought she had in her. He glanced up at her and said, "There's a lot of old people out there in wheelchairs that would get up and run away if you came at them with a euthanasia needle. She'd rather be alive than dead." She lived to be 32, and really enjoyed her last years.

Dr. Richardson has said that as long as they could control his pain, he wanted to give Barbaro a chance to live. I think that this is the difference between Barbaro's case so far and Sunday Silence's, whom the Japanese kept alive when he was truly suffering. I have absolute trust in the Jacksons and Dr. Richardson to act in the best interest of the horse. If he doesn't make it, it will be because it wasn't in his best interest to keep trying.

It seems like more people are negative on his survival right now. Perhaps this is because they are a little shocked at the exaggerated gait that he had in the recent video:

http://www.timwoolleyracing.com/null-barb.wmv


It was disturbing to see a horse whose gait was so magnificent and smooth now walk in such a jerky manner, even if it was only temporary. And my heart just sank when I read that only one side of the hoof was growing out. But I don't want to give up on him yet. I had him in the future Pool 1, and I still believe.

C'mon, sweetie, you can do it!

[Tucumcari]

ONE son for a soundness issue, ONE son for a bad step. Barbaro is not a soundness issue so to make your "two sons" comment is totally incorrect.[/quote]

Damn, I love ya Sam, but...
there's no such thing as a bad step. Just like the horse "stepped in a hole" on the race track. Been on thousnads of horses over alot of different surfaces and had a bunch of horses break down. All of that has led me to believe that there is no such thing as a bad step.

[Tucumcari]

So...no, they don't let you know! We have to be willing to see because they will endure and do what is asked of them. [/quote]

Smartest comment I have read on this situation began. Well said.

[BJ]

ONE son for a soundness issue, ONE son for a bad step. Barbaro is not a soundness issue so to make your "two sons" comment is totally incorrect.

Damn, I love ya Sam, but...
there's no such thing as a bad step. Just like the horse "stepped in a hole" on the race track. Been on thousnads of horses over alot of different surfaces and had a bunch of horses break down. All of that has led me to believe that there is no such thing as a bad step.

Tuc...

What about the ground breaking out from under the horse, and the horse comes down hard, then a few steps out of the gate..snap? You don't think that is a bad step?

Granted, I think the "excuse" is overused, to deflect guilt/blame...but I do believe there actually ARE such instances. I mean...a human can break an ankle by taking a bad step, and humans are not traveling at such speeds, or with the body to leg density ratio that horses function under.

[geowarrior]

Actually I agree with you, BJ and Tucumcari. When I say "let you know" I don't really mean that you let it get to the stage where it's obvious that it's long past time. I realised when I saw your comments that "let you know" is actually a very subjective thing. I have a very old dog (large breed) and I'm constantly watching her for signs of a descent beginning, not a descent ending. I completely agree that one should not wait until it's obvious that all pleasure in life has gone, but I do think that careful observation can allow for identification of the signs that prolonging life would induce more suffering than pleasure. My point really is that unless we are able to observe at close quarters and see exactly what Barbaro's connections are seeing, we should, if we can, reserve judgement.

[Sam]

a human can break an ankle by taking a bad step, and humans are not traveling at such speeds, or with the body to leg density ratio that horses function under.

Too right.

For the most part, I'd defer to you Tuc, but not on this. If a person can be laid up for 4 weeks because they stepped off the deck wrong, caught the edge of a rock and fell -- spraining their ankle -- a horse can take a bad step and snap one.

That said, yes, I do think it's an overused excuse and that most "Bad Steps" are the after effects of trainer error. In this case, Barbaro took a bad step, but truth told.. that ankle looked suspect when they were leading him back to the gate after he broke through. I think he actually took the bad step when he busted through the gate, not during the race. I think he damaged it breaking through the gate and then destroyed it when he had to rebreak on it.

[BJ]

a human can break an ankle by taking a bad step, and humans are not traveling at such speeds, or with the body to leg density ratio that horses function under.

Too right.

For the most part, I'd defer to you Tuc, but not on this. If a person can be laid up for 4 weeks because they stepped off the deck wrong, caught the edge of a rock and fell -- spraining their ankle -- a horse can take a bad step and snap one.

Sam,

I regularly get "nerve/pain surges" that can cause me to put my foot down wrong and my whole leg to want to buckle. (I don't need a deck or a rock ) So, I can't imagine, horses don't sometimes just land "unbalanced" on one or more feet...and all things are just against them when they do. Sometimes, just stressed muscles will throw an entire body off. Horses have ways of getting stressed and they try to let you know...often by acting up in the paddock, post parade or the gate...just like Barbaro.

[geowarrior]

Tucumcari, I know you have considerably more direct experience with horses than I could even imagine, but what about St. Liam? Was that not a bad step?

I herniated a disc in my neck, and as far as I know I moved the wrong way when sleeping. Not a directly analogous situation, but isn't an accident possible when a leg snaps?

[BJ]

My point really is that unless we are able to observe at close quarters and see exactly what Barbaro's connections are seeing, we should, if we can, reserve judgement.

There are so many things at work with the Barbaro connections. No...you cannot judge anyone in this position...I know they will make the right decision, because they do love that horse. They are just struggling with what the "right" decision is. None of us can really say. We are not there.

I must say I am really disappointed though...with all the advances in medicine and the things at their disposal at New Bolton, they haven't done something as simple as give him special, custom orthotic boots and have him packed in Rapid Response to STIMULATE the healing and growth of that hoof. Sometimes simple is best.

www.soft-ride.com
www.amderdon.com

[Tucumcari]

Tuc...

What about the ground breaking out from under the horse, and the horse comes down hard, then a few steps out of the gate..snap? You don't think that is a bad step?

No, I don't. I'll be honest. I'll give you a scenario. I used to get on this horse. His name was Slew City Citadel. He was a bad going horse. I was really lucky to be the work rider in the barn. I galloped or jogged him daily, and worked him when he worked. He felt crummy. BUT when he worked he felt fine. So I held him up and never really let him run when he worked. Pull and he would work into the bridle. Always worked well, felt great doing it. He felt bad every day ecept for when he worked, to a point where I was so relieved when riders came to get on him. I had Injurde/killed too many for that barn already... I quit and went elsewhere. The first time he ran, he broke his knee and was euthanized. He broke it off a mere few jumps out of the gate. Was that a bad step?? damn right.. bad for him. No fault of his. Just the fault of the people entrusted with his life. And that is just ONE of the stories I can tell. I might be tainted, but I've lived it, and that has formed my opinions for me. Thre is no such thing as a bad step.

Granted, I think the "excuse" is overused, to deflect guilt/blame...but I do believe there actually ARE such instances. I mean...a human can break an ankle by taking a bad step, and humans are not traveling at such speeds, or with the body to leg density ratio that horses function under
I just don't. soft tissue strains maybe, but not a devastaing injury like this. They will always tell you, you just have to be listening.

[wilf]

This thread is well meaning and full of hope and fear and none of us have or ever will have the answer until the events have already unfolded for us to second guess, and that comment does not reflect unkindly on any single post here! I was shocked to see the latest pics of Barbaro but what was I realistically expecting? Let a horse fight for itself and then you will know. ....Several days ago I took my only pal ;.... a 15 yr old jack russell to the vets when he became very uncomfortable with his teeth and quite honestly I never expected another day with him given that his sister had died 6 months before of liver failure. The vet told me that he may not wake from anaethsthesia as his blood work was way off the chart re; liver problems. I boldly replied that his quality of life was paramount and he was tough so do your best! Later I went to the vet's office hoping for the best but fearing the worst...it was so sad! On entering the clinic there was silence then all hell broke loose with his trademark yelp and I knew that there would be at least a few more weeks of madness and fun so I gladly paid the bill and drove the little terror home to play with his buddies. What is the moral of the story ? I don't know but where there is life there is hope so run with it!

[Tucumcari]

but isn't an accident possible when a leg snaps?[/quote]

In my opinion, no.
I have never been on a horse and didn't know that it was not right. I used to work horses for "the" supertrainer" and the last one I worked for him I knew was liable to "go." I had told him and told him and told him that hse was no good. She wasn't. I worked her 3/4 and she brokedown at the 1/8 pole. Most wretched thing I have ever done. I knew she was bad and I went on with it any way. Because I was a fool, because I trusted the trainer more than I did myself.
I can honestly say that I have never had a sound horse break down. AND I have never had one break down that wasn't suspect. That's why I have the opinion that I do. Maybe someone else has had sound horses snap one off, but I have yet to be blessed with that lovely experience.